From jet at sonic.net Sat Dec 1 10:44:37 2001 From: jet at sonic.net (Mark Street) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:31 2005 Subject: Debian aptget upgrade distro Message-ID: A friend just upgraded his debian distro from potato to woody. He changed his pointers for apt and ran the aptget update distro command and it buzzed away downloading the proper packages, etc. Then along came a nice little curses based config util to configure several packages.... Then dumped back to a command prompt. Kewl.... Well he feels now he has a mixture of potato and woody, the startx script does not work, although X will start...the X server..no window manager or desktop. Another gottcha is that the configuration of lilo requires either a boot partition install or a MBR ..... he is using a boot disk, so it looks like a manual install of lilo and edit of lilo.conf He ran the aptget upgrade distro several times until there we no messages.....except the lilo configuration script. Anything I can relay to him for comfort in this time of need. hehe Mark From beejlintz at MauiMail.com Mon Dec 3 16:58:19 2001 From: beejlintz at MauiMail.com (Brian Lintz) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:31 2005 Subject: xbox games on linux Message-ID: Hi all gamesters! If any of you like the new xbox by ms, you may be interested in this. One thing that ms wants to be able to do with this toy is to allow games to be played across the internet via two or more xboxes (ex-boxers?) Apparently, the function either does not work well or it is not activated. Microsoft management suggests a release date for this ability to be somewhen this summer. In any case, this link shows that someone (or a group effort!) has developed and released a means for xboxers to play each other across the internet. http://www.xboxgw.com/ Sincerely Y., beej From fryman at sonic.net Tue Dec 4 00:09:52 2001 From: fryman at sonic.net (troy) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:31 2005 Subject: Linux and natural selection Message-ID: <20011204000952.A5960@sonic.net> Here's a rather longish article but with some interesting (and often humorous) commentary by the folks on the Linux kernel mailing list: http://kerneltrap.org/article.php?sid=398 It starts off slow but gets real juicy toward the middle. ...Maybe it's just resonating with me right now because i recently re-read Dawkins' The_Selfish_Gene. -t From wcoole at bcoole.com Tue Dec 4 15:20:11 2001 From: wcoole at bcoole.com (Walter Coole) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:31 2005 Subject: httpd? Message-ID: <3C0D5A2B.62FE9DD0@bcoole.com> Can anyone tell me (without more detail than I can handle) how to configure httpd? I was working on a cgi script and I wanted to test it out. It seems as though I should be able to run httpd and point netscape at my html file and try it out, but I keep getting "Forbidden You don't have permission to access /home/walter/cgi/cal.html on this server." I've been using linuxconf, but there are all these fields that I don't understand and are probably needed for a real web server. Thanks. -- Walter Coole wcoole@bcoole.com RONIN Engineering (707)763-1986 817 Riesling Rd. Petaluma, CA 94954 http://resumes.dice.com/wcoole From frankb at efball.com Tue Dec 4 16:25:45 2001 From: frankb at efball.com (E Frank Ball) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:31 2005 Subject: On the ssh notices... In-Reply-To: ; from dugan@passwall.com on Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 10:37:59AM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20011204162545.A12877@zouave.sonic.net> On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 10:37:59AM -0800, ME wrote: } The first message with URL suggest even 2.9.9p2 is open. The followup } suggests that this is not the case. Hoever, the ssh1 crc compensation } attack (with the int problem) may be/have been a different exploit than } the one discussed in the URL of the fiirst post. } } Both published here for you to watch for more news on ssh exploits. } } (A bugtraq post a few days ago included ref to a bug in openssh 3.0.0 and } a rumored bug in 3.0.1 but no specifics were offered - suggesting the } open ssh 3.0.1 issue to be *just* a rumor at this point. Found this on Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.security Is this as serious as it sounds? -------------------------------- OpenSSH 3.0.2 has just been released. It will be available from the mirrors listed at http://www.openssh.com/ shortly. ... This release fixes a vulnerability in the UseLogin option of OpenSSH. This option is not enabled in the default installation of OpenSSH. However, if UseLogin is enabled by the administrator, all versions of OpenSSH prior to 3.0.2 may be vulnerable to local attacks. The vulnerability allows local users to pass environment variables (e.g. LD_PRELOAD) to the login process. The login process is run with the same privilege as sshd (usually with root privilege). Do not enable UseLogin on your machines or disable UseLogin again in /etc/sshd_config: UseLogin no -- E Frank Ball efball@efball.com From frankb at efball.com Tue Dec 4 16:30:08 2001 From: frankb at efball.com (E Frank Ball) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:31 2005 Subject: more on the remote ssh exploit (fwd) In-Reply-To: ; from dugan@passwall.com on Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 10:33:54AM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20011204163008.B12877@zouave.sonic.net> On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 10:33:54AM -0800, ME wrote: } A little research gave me: } } } * OpenSSH 2.3.0 and newer are not vulnerable to the "Feb 8, 2001: } SSH-1 Daemon CRC32 Compensation Attack Detector Vulnerability", RAZOR } Bindview Advisory CAN-2001-0144. A buffer overflow in the CRC32 } compensation attack detector can lead to remote root access. This } problem has been fixed in OpenSSH 2.3.0. However, versions prior to } 2.3.0 are vulnerable. } } } } Issue Date: February 8, 2001 } Remotely exploitable vulnerability condition exists in most ssh daemon } installations (F-SECURE, OpenSSH, SSH from ssh.com, OSSH). } Vulnerable: } OpenSSH prior to 2.3.0 (unless SSH protocol 1 support is disabled) } Not vulnerable: } OpenSSH 2.3.0 (problem fixed) ssh1 version ssh-1.2.32 also has the fix. -- E Frank Ball efball@efball.com From chrisw at pacaids.com Wed Dec 5 00:48:35 2001 From: chrisw at pacaids.com (Christopher Wagner) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:31 2005 Subject: OpenSSH issue.. Message-ID: For some reason, on a Cobalt Linux system (a Raq 4/Miva), OpenSSH is not keeping a connection open for very long, I can only stay in for a minute or so before I receive a "Connection Closed By Foreign Host" message. This happens even if I am active in the shell. Any help would be greatly appreciated. :) - Christopher Wagner -- Packaging Aids Corporation IS Administrator 25 Tiburon St. San Rafael, CA 94901 (415) 454-4868 x116 From vulpia at sonic.net Wed Dec 5 11:27:30 2001 From: vulpia at sonic.net (Nancy Harrison) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:31 2005 Subject: Linux and natural selection In-Reply-To: <20011204000952.A5960@sonic.net> Message-ID: >Here's a rather longish article but with some interesting (and often >humorous) commentary by the folks on the Linux kernel mailing list: > >http://kerneltrap.org/article.php?sid=398 > >It starts off slow but gets real juicy toward the middle. >...Maybe it's just resonating with me right now because i recently re-read >Dawkins' The_Selfish_Gene. > >-t Thanks Troy for the link. LInus mentions "hundreds of years" instead of thousands or millions for evolution to produce new species, but in fact it's much faster than that if you consider "catastrophic selection". Since evolution works on populations, not individuals or species, consider a devastating local disaster, like a forest fire, wiping out populations of annual flowers of diverse genetic makeup - many different colors, for example. Only the purple ones survive, by sheer dumb luck. Next year, you've got just purples, which attract different sets of pollinators, begin to backcross, and you can have a new species in hardly any time at all. This example has actually been documented for the genus Clarkia. Now, as to operating systems, let's look at what happens when the asteroid hits. Everything is gone EXCEPT cockroaches and rodents. And bacteria, of course. Cockroaches don't change much, but rodents do - I prefer to think of Linux as a rodent, not a cockroach! As for bacteria, the great generalists, we know who fits that category - where else do viruses invade? - NH -Nancy Harrison http://www.sonic.net/~vulpia/index.html Milo Baker Chapter California Native Plant Society http://www.sonic.net/~vulpia/cnps/mbaker.html From Jake at callatg.com Thu Dec 6 12:15:57 2001 From: Jake at callatg.com (Jake) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:31 2005 Subject: Iptables help? Message-ID: <001301c17e92$d0b607c0$17fea8c0@error> I have my linux box set up with iptables for NAT but for the life of me I cannot figure out how to do port forwaring. Perhaps its simple and I overlooked it, but all I want is to have ports forward to the internal ips of the boxes for a given port. So if you want to ftp into my linux box it really forwards the request to my ftp server behind the linux box on the private network. Anyone have any pointers? - Jake From warquel at hotmail.com Thu Dec 6 12:39:50 2001 From: warquel at hotmail.com (Warren Raquel) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:31 2005 Subject: Iptables help? Message-ID: I haven't tried switching to iptables yet but here's what I did with ipmasqadm when I was using ipchains. root@computer root]# echo 1 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward Since you're running FTP behind the firewall you'll want to load the proper modules root@computer root]# /sbin/modprobe ip_masq_ftp (or ip_masq_autofw) (I can't remember if you have to load ip_masq_portfw too. Try it.) Then run the ipmasqadm command for ports 20 and 21 root@computer root]# /usr/sbin/ipmasq portfw -a -P tcp -L \ [external.firewall.address] 21 -R [internal.ftp.server.address] 21 root@computer root]# /usr/sbin/ipmasq portfw -a -P tcp -L \ [external.firewall.address] 21 -R [internal.ftp.server.address] 21 I haven't done the research to see if IPTABLES has this built in. From what I remember I think it does but I could be wrong. Hope it works out. I haven't set it up in a while and don't have the means to test it out so hopefully this gives you a point to start from. Warren Raquel MCP CCNA - Just another geek. >From: "Jake" >Reply-To: >To: "00 nblugTalk" >Subject: Iptables help? >Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 12:15:57 -0800 > >I have my linux box set up with iptables for NAT but for the life of me I >cannot figure out how to do port forwaring. >Perhaps its simple and I overlooked it, but all I want is to have ports >forward to the internal ips of the boxes for a given port. > >So if you want to ftp into my linux box it really forwards the request to >my >ftp server behind the linux box on the private network. > >Anyone have any pointers? > >- >Jake > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From jet at sonic.net Thu Dec 6 20:17:48 2001 From: jet at sonic.net (Mark Street) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: Iptables help? In-Reply-To: <001301c17e92$d0b607c0$17fea8c0@error> Message-ID: You better be more specific on the service you want to forward. I makes a difference in the rule set. http://people.unix-fu.org/andreasson/index.html On Thu, 6 Dec 2001, Jake wrote: > I have my linux box set up with iptables for NAT but for the life of me I > cannot figure out how to do port forwaring. > Perhaps its simple and I overlooked it, but all I want is to have ports > forward to the internal ips of the boxes for a given port. > > So if you want to ftp into my linux box it really forwards the request to my > ftp server behind the linux box on the private network. > > Anyone have any pointers? > > - > Jake > From chrisw at pacaids.com Fri Dec 7 01:19:10 2001 From: chrisw at pacaids.com (Christopher Wagner) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: Iptables help? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I feel I should point out that you usually would need to open up port 20 as well for full FTP functionality. :) - Christopher Wagner -- Packaging Aids Corporation IS Administrator 25 Tiburon St. San Rafael, CA 94901 (415) 454-4868 x116 -----Original Message----- From: Warren Raquel [mailto:warquel@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 12:40 PM To: talk@nblug.org Subject: Re: Iptables help? root@computer root]# echo 1 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward Since you're running FTP behind the firewall you'll want to load the proper modules root@computer root]# /sbin/modprobe ip_masq_ftp (or ip_masq_autofw) (I can't remember if you have to load ip_masq_portfw too. Try it.) Then run the ipmasqadm command for ports 20 and 21 root@computer root]# /usr/sbin/ipmasq portfw -a -P tcp -L \ [external.firewall.address] 21 -R [internal.ftp.server.address] 21 root@computer root]# /usr/sbin/ipmasq portfw -a -P tcp -L \ [external.firewall.address] 21 -R [internal.ftp.server.address] 21 ----- From schwer at sonic.net Sat Dec 8 10:05:48 2001 From: schwer at sonic.net (augie) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: linux alternative? Message-ID: <01120810054802.07469@goku.sayian-blood> at ssu we use mathematica for all of our math fun. so now im wondering if there is an open-source linux alternative? something that does differential equations, intergrals, power series, and other calculus stuff. i know mathematica makes a linux version of their product, but $139 is $139! augie -- "I will permit no man to narrow and degrade my soul by making me hate him." --Booker T. Washington registered linux user #229905 From dolo724 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 11 22:15:53 2001 From: dolo724 at yahoo.com (Mike Rice) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: Donations for the Ranch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011212061553.44926.qmail@web13302.mail.yahoo.com> The purpose of this email is to begin organizing any donations for Lincoln's use at Rancho Cotati High School. I have available an AT-style p166, 64MB ram, smc ether power 10/100 pci Also available is a tall tower case with a 250 watt power supply. Can be delivered on request. We have a student who can bring it to school. Mike ===== ___shaving weekly with Occam's Razor___ Visit the Northern California Church of Freethought at http://www.geocities.com/nccof ...Think for Yourself! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From frankb at efball.com Wed Dec 12 17:07:53 2001 From: frankb at efball.com (E Frank Ball) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: If somebody posted sarcasm to the web would anybody notice? Message-ID: <20011212170753.B29649@zouave.sonic.net> An embedded message was scrubbed... From: unknown sender Subject: no subject Date: no date Size: 179 Url: http://nblug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20011212/56d2ceb6/attachment.mht From warquel at hotmail.com Wed Dec 12 17:09:48 2001 From: warquel at hotmail.com (Warren Raquel) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: If somebody posted sarcasm to the web would anybody notice? Message-ID: I saw this on a few forums. I love #6 and #8. It's hilarious. >From: E Frank Ball >Reply-To: >To: talk@nblug.org >Subject: If somebody posted sarcasm to the web would anybody notice? >Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 17:07:53 -0800 > ><< message1.txt >> Warren Raquel MCP CCNA - Just another geek. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From lincoln_peters at hotmail.com Wed Dec 12 19:13:50 2001 From: lincoln_peters at hotmail.com (Lincoln Peters) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: Donations for the Ranch Message-ID: If there is enough equipment out there, we might as well share the wealth with a few other schools in the area. Of course, I don't mind if Rancho gets the bulk of the equipment, since I go there. And I should add: In June, I got two broken computers from a company in Santa Rosa that otherwise would have been thrown away (whoever they hired to repair them wasn't very smart; he didn't know the difference between the memory and the hard disk!). So at the moment, besides the server that I demo'ed last night, I have on hand one computer with an AMD K5/166 with 48MB RAM, an at-the-monent-unidentified soundcard, and a CD-ROM drive, but a broken hard disk (possibly a broken IDE controller). The other computer appears to have a burned-out Pentium/133 motherboard (somehow the CPU fan fell off), a generic Tape drive, and a 5.25" floppy drive (maybe it would be useful to a school that is still using Apple II computers). By the way, has anyone played with InterMezzo? I haven't tried anything with it yet, but if it works, and the administrators are willing to give up NT, it might relieve some of the network burden that comes from these distributed filesystems. Mike, that first system that you described would nicely replace the one that's set up now. I've got a 100BaseTX Ethernet card that could go into it and speed up just about everything. Of course, what I'd _really_ love to see at some point is a Math Department meeting done with Comic Chat. Imagine a thin, gray alien on the computer screen saying "What part of x=(-bħsqrt(b^2-4*a*c))/(2*a) don't you understand?" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From lincoln_peters at hotmail.com Thu Dec 13 07:52:00 2001 From: lincoln_peters at hotmail.com (Lincoln Peters) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: Whose motherboard is this? Message-ID: At the end of my history class, someone handed me a box with an AT Pentium 1 motherboard loaded with memory and a CPU, and an NIC. All she said was, "My dad wanted you to have it." I don't know who her dad is, but I would like to be able to give credit where it's due. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From frankb at efball.com Thu Dec 13 11:23:33 2001 From: frankb at efball.com (E Frank Ball) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: Donations for the Ranch In-Reply-To: ; from lincoln_peters@hotmail.com on Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 07:13:50PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20011213112333.D1070@zouave.sonic.net> On Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 07:13:50PM -0800, Lincoln Peters wrote: } And I should add: } In June, I got two broken computers from a company in Santa Rosa that } otherwise would have been thrown away (whoever they hired to repair them } wasn't very smart; he didn't know the difference between the memory and the } hard disk!). So at the moment, besides the server that I demo'ed last } night, I have on hand one computer with an AMD K5/166 with 48MB RAM, an } at-the-monent-unidentified soundcard, and a CD-ROM drive, but a broken hard } disk (possibly a broken IDE controller). HSC used to (and still might) sell IDE controllers for $3 to $5 each depending on what they had in stock. They worked great with linux, I put them in several boxes as a secondary controller. If they are no longer available I might be able to spare one, I'll have to look around. I have a 540MB IDE drive I've never gotten around to throwing away if you want it. If you are interested in SCSI drives (SCSI2 50pin) I might be able to spare some 1 or 2 GB drives. } The other computer appears to have a burned-out Pentium/133 motherboard } (somehow the CPU fan fell off), a generic Tape drive, and a 5.25" floppy } drive (maybe it would be useful to a school that is still using Apple II } computers). Need any 3.5" floppies? I can spare a couple. -- E Frank Ball efball@efball.com From lincoln_peters at hotmail.com Thu Dec 13 12:45:50 2001 From: lincoln_peters at hotmail.com (Lincoln Peters) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: Donations for the Ranch Message-ID: >From: E Frank Ball >Reply-To: >To: talk@nblug.org >Subject: Re: Donations for the Ranch >Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:23:33 -0800 > [snip] > >HSC used to (and still might) sell IDE controllers for $3 to $5 each >depending on what they had in stock. They worked great with linux, I >put them in several boxes as a secondary controller. If they are no >longer available I might be able to spare one, I'll have to look around. Are they PCI or ISA? I bought a so-called ISA IDE controller there a while ago, and it turned out to be a soundcard with a CD-ROM connector. I should have known; it had RCA audio ports on the back. > >I have a 540MB IDE drive I've never gotten around to throwing away if >you want it. If you are interested in SCSI drives (SCSI2 50pin) I >might be able to spare some 1 or 2 GB drives. That 540MB drive sounds good. It might be enough for a web server or an IRC server. I've also got three 2GB IDE drives from those almost-discarded computers and from my grandmother's old computer, and I need to check them out to see if they're really any good. I can't remember if the netbooting server (named "melampus") has a 50-pin SCSI or something else, but I'll try to find out. > > >Need any 3.5" floppies? I can spare a couple. Oh, they both have 3.5" floppy drives. I thought that a 3.5" floppy drive would be considered a given, but ever since the birth of the iMac... Seriously, I've probably got plenty of 3.5" floppy drives in my garage (a.k.a. "the boneyard"). I'll try to answer some of these questions when I get home and can really look at this hardware. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From lincoln_peters at hotmail.com Thu Dec 13 17:08:24 2001 From: lincoln_peters at hotmail.com (Lincoln Peters) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: RCHS donation status Message-ID: The server that I demo'ed Tuesday night was dropped on the way back to RCHS. The /netboot hard drive may have been damaged, but the IDE hard drive with the / filesystem is O.K. (I don't yet know about the SCSI with /usr and /var). As many of you may have noticed, I have already received a motherboard and an NIC from Mike Rice. I have installed it in the case formerly occupied by the burnt-out motherboard, and will test it when I've finished my homework. WARNING!!! Don't donate hardware directly to the school. I talked to their technician about it, and he said that he was afraid to introduce any new computers to the network because he's overworked with the number of different configurations that they already have. I'm thinking, "What, is it really hard to manage Windows and MacOS?" Maybe I'm just a better technician, but anyway, they are not going to accept donations until I can convince them that they are worth it. At the moment, all of the equipment (except for the server) is in my garage, and until I have something useful for them, it will have to stay there. Of course, I do not plan to leave it in my garage forever; if RCHS doesn't want it, I'll offer it to another school. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From frankb at efball.com Thu Dec 13 20:16:41 2001 From: frankb at efball.com (E Frank Ball) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: Donations for the Ranch In-Reply-To: ; from lincoln_peters@hotmail.com on Thu, Dec 13, 2001 at 12:45:50PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20011213201641.A2879@zouave.sonic.net> On Thu, Dec 13, 2001 at 12:45:50PM -0800, Lincoln Peters wrote: } >From: E Frank Ball } > } >HSC used to (and still might) sell IDE controllers for $3 to $5 each } >depending on what they had in stock. They worked great with linux, I } >put them in several boxes as a secondary controller. If they are no } >longer available I might be able to spare one, I'll have to look around. } } Are they PCI or ISA? I bought a so-called ISA IDE controller there a while } ago, and it turned out to be a soundcard with a CD-ROM connector. I should } have known; it had RCA audio ports on the back. One of the IDE controllers HSC sold had RCA connectors on the back, but it was just to get rear panel connections from a CDROM drive or something, the only function of the card was an IDE controller. These are very small very simple cards. Three ICs, an IRQ jumper, 4 capacitors, and 2 resistors. There was a plug for audio in and the IDE bus. This was the $3 card. The whole card was about 1.5"x6" -- E Frank Ball efball@efball.com From schwer at sonic.net Fri Dec 14 16:48:31 2001 From: schwer at sonic.net (augie) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: cd burner progs Message-ID: <01121416483101.01401@goku.sayian-blood> any reccomnedations for apps to burn cd's under linux? -- "I will permit no man to narrow and degrade my soul by making me hate him." --Booker T. Washington registered linux user #229905 From dustin at sonic.net Fri Dec 14 16:53:26 2001 From: dustin at sonic.net (Dustin Mollo) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: cd burner progs In-Reply-To: <01121416483101.01401@goku.sayian-blood> References: <01121416483101.01401@goku.sayian-blood> Message-ID: <20011214165326.A13259@sonic.net> On Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 04:48:31PM -0800, augie wrote: > any reccomnedations for apps to burn cd's under linux? While it's still BETA, I'm a big fan of xcdroast (www.xcdroast.org). I've also used cdrecord (http://www.fokus.gmd.de/research/cc/glone/employees/joerg.schilling/private/cdrecord.html) at times as well -Dustin From brad at linuxbofh.com Fri Dec 14 17:32:03 2001 From: brad at linuxbofh.com (Brad Cox) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: cd burner progs In-Reply-To: <01121416483101.01401@goku.sayian-blood> References: <01121416483101.01401@goku.sayian-blood> Message-ID: <20011215013203.GC10322@linuxbofh.com> On Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 04:48:31PM -0800, augie wrote: > any reccomnedations for apps to burn cd's under linux? I use GToaster (http://gnometoaster.rulez.org/) for creating audio cd's from mp3's, as it supports on the fly conversion. I use xcdroast (Dustin gave the URL) for everything else. It may be Beta, but it has been that way for as long as I remember (except when it was alpha, which is about the same as far as I am concerned). -- Brad Cox brad@linuxbofh.com Key fingerprint = E741 589E 4A43 DA89 C5AA B9A3 7E44 18BB C16B F62D Forest fires cause Smokey Bears. From jet at sonic.net Fri Dec 14 17:38:21 2001 From: jet at sonic.net (Mark Street) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: cd burner progs In-Reply-To: <01121416483101.01401@goku.sayian-blood> Message-ID: gtoaster > gnome-toaster or gcombust work peachy. On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, augie wrote: > any reccomnedations for apps to burn cd's under linux? > > -- > "I will permit no man to narrow and degrade my soul by making me hate him." > --Booker T. Washington > > registered linux user #229905 > From simmenthaler at earthlink.net Fri Dec 14 17:47:04 2001 From: simmenthaler at earthlink.net (Howard) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: cd burner progs References: <01121416483101.01401@goku.sayian-blood> Message-ID: <000701c1850a$65f4e540$4c81d03f@soapbox> There are many KToast or KCDBurn. I have about 3 - 4 Programs that come with Suse. What is more important is Hardware. For example since I am using SCSI, which has a defined protocol setup is easier because the system is already aware of them. ----- Original Message ----- From: "augie" To: Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 4:48 PM Subject: cd burner progs > any reccomnedations for apps to burn cd's under linux? > > -- > "I will permit no man to narrow and degrade my soul by making me hate him." > --Booker T. Washington > > registered linux user #229905 From schwer at sonic.net Sat Dec 15 00:34:35 2001 From: schwer at sonic.net (augie) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: free as in bumper sticker! Message-ID: <01121500343500.01402@goku.sayian-blood> excerpt from the december issue of linux journal... Free Bumper Sticker If you're a Linux usin' geek of nature, you'll certainly want to advertise it. Get a free "geek by nature, linux by choice" bumper sticker simply by practicing your snail mail skills and sending a self-addressed, stamped envelope to: Linux Journal, ``Bumper Sticker Promo'' PO Box 55549 Seattle, WA 98155-0549 Within just two weeks you'll receive a "geek by nature, linux by choice" bumper sticker. for a picture of the sticker check here: http://store.linuxjournal.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/geekbs-big.jpg -- "I will permit no man to narrow and degrade my soul by making me hate him." --Booker T. Washington registered linux user #229905 From Jake at callatg.com Sat Dec 15 14:25:33 2001 From: Jake at callatg.com (Jake) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: RMS and nblug Message-ID: <000701c185b7$69a25440$17fea8c0@error> Hello all, So I had lunch with Richard Stallman last week. I had explained to him that a north bay linux user group in my area exsisted and he smiled. He then suggested that I start a northbay GNU/Linux group. Any thoughts on this? - Jake From luvisi at andru.sonoma.edu Sat Dec 15 15:25:51 2001 From: luvisi at andru.sonoma.edu (Andru Luvisi) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: RMS and nblug In-Reply-To: <000701c185b7$69a25440$17fea8c0@error> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Jake wrote: > Hello all, > > So I had lunch with Richard Stallman last week. > I had explained to him that a north bay linux user group in my area exsisted > and he smiled. > He then suggested that I start a northbay GNU/Linux group. > > Any thoughts on this? Works for me. Andru -- Andru Luvisi, Programmer/Analyst Quote Of The Moment: Every living man has limitations, beyond which he becomes incompetent. The wise man, whether artist or artisan, will endeavor to learn the nature of his limitations and to keep his work well within them. - Nevil Maskelyne From fryman at sonic.net Sat Dec 15 15:42:28 2001 From: fryman at sonic.net (troy) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: RMS and nblug In-Reply-To: <000701c185b7$69a25440$17fea8c0@error> References: <000701c185b7$69a25440$17fea8c0@error> Message-ID: <20011215154228.A25780@sonic.net> I still think GNU/Linux is a bit of a mouthful for casual conversation. It does, however, have at least a bit more charm than, "Lignux." It seems to be that NBLUG already encompasses most things open source/geek related. One of the best meetings we've had was Tim O'Reilly's talk on open source. If you were seriously considering another group, i don't think it's a great idea because IMHO, NBLUG *is* GNU/NBLUG, but like the OS it isn't referred to as such. I just think it'd be redundant. OTOH, if you're simply trying to start some dialog about giving credit where credit is due, then that's definitely a good thing. Personally, when i introduce someone to Linux, i try to get them interested first and slam them with details later. One thing that might be a good start would be to include on nblug.org some links/reviews to good books that talk about the whole Open Source phenomenon. I'd nominate these: The_Cathedral_and_the_Bazaar by ESR (duh!) and Free_For_All by Peter Wayner I'm sure that plenty has been said about the first, but i'd do a review of the second if there's interest. I'd also be interested in hearing about other good books on related topics. -t On Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 02:25:33PM -0800, Jake wrote: > Hello all, > > So I had lunch with Richard Stallman last week. > I had explained to him that a north bay linux user group in my area exsisted > and he smiled. > He then suggested that I start a northbay GNU/Linux group. > > Any thoughts on this? > > > - > Jake From mrp at sonic.net Sat Dec 15 20:22:16 2001 From: mrp at sonic.net (Mitch Patenaude) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: RMS and nblug In-Reply-To: <000701c185b7$69a25440$17fea8c0@error> Message-ID: <7CDCE9B0-F1DC-11D5-B7E0-003065DBDBC2@sonic.net> This is just RMS being RMS... he's always been bitter that GNU and the FSF haven't gotten their fair share of the credit for Linux's success (most of what you think of as linux is actually the GNU tool set, plus other open source projects like Apache and XFree86)... so he always says it should be called GNU/Linux, rather than just Linux. He's got something of a point (How many of the thousands of programmers who contributed to a standard Linux distribution can you name? Linus, Alan Cox, ESR, and ?????) , but as usual he's being an insufferable nuisance about it. -- Mitch On Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 02:25 , Jake wrote: > Hello all, > > So I had lunch with Richard Stallman last week. > I had explained to him that a north bay linux user group in my area > exsisted > and he smiled. > He then suggested that I start a northbay GNU/Linux group. > > Any thoughts on this? > > > - > Jake > From lincoln_peters at hotmail.com Sat Dec 15 22:36:16 2001 From: lincoln_peters at hotmail.com (Lincoln Peters) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: Linux in RCHS: "Run to the laboratory and fetch me a brain!" Message-ID: I have removed the burnt-out motherboard from the tall tower and put the motherboard from Mike in its place. At the moment, it has the motherboard, 3 hard drives of approx. 2GB apiece, a 24X CD-ROM drive, a 3.5" floppy drive, a 5.25" floppy drive, and a tape drive. I have not yet tried to turn it on because the three hard drives may be too much for the 230-watt power supply; there aren't enough outlets for all of them (and I don't have any splitters on hand). I have it running right now with two power supplies. At the moment, I am just testing the working parts for any defects. So far, the only parts that are giving me problems are the second two hard drives (both from the discarded boxes). All I need now is to find an AT power supply of at least 300 watts... _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From Jake at callatg.com Sat Dec 15 23:00:09 2001 From: Jake at callatg.com (Jake) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: RMS and nblug References: <000701c185b7$69a25440$17fea8c0@error> <20011215154228.A25780@sonic.net> Message-ID: <001901c185ff$4d453360$17fea8c0@error> >Troy said: > It seems to be that NBLUG already encompasses most things open source/geek > related. One of the best meetings we've had was Tim O'Reilly's talk on open > source. If you were seriously considering another group, i don't think it's > a great idea because IMHO, NBLUG *is* GNU/NBLUG, but like the OS it isn't > referred to as such. I just think it'd be redundant. After I explained that it was backed by Tim he said: "All the more reason." I think that I was trying to suggest changing the groups name rather than create an entirely new one. RMS seemed keen on the idea of a new one but I think just giving credit where credit is due is sufficiant. I think its counter productive, however the gnu project makes up more of linux than any other single contributing group. >Mitch said: > so he always says > it should be called GNU/Linux, rather than just Linux. I think he has a good point, I think I would be pretty bitter in his shoes. However I think that he does alot of work and gets only minor credit. The proof is that any linux newbie will not have a clue who RMS is but will know of Cox, Linus and perhaps even ESR. - Jake From mrp at sonic.net Sun Dec 16 09:18:59 2001 From: mrp at sonic.net (Mitch Patenaude) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: RMS and nblug In-Reply-To: <001901c185ff$4d453360$17fea8c0@error> Message-ID: On Saturday, December 15, 2001, at 11:00 , Jake wrote: >> Mitch said: >> so he always says >> it should be called GNU/Linux, rather than just Linux. > > I think he has a good point, I think I would be pretty bitter in his > shoes. > However I think that he does alot of work and gets only minor credit. While there is a lot of GNU stuff, there is also a lot of stuff in most distributions that isn't GNU. What about Apache, PERL, Python, PHP, XEmacs, KDE (and widgets and tools and apps). Those are a major part of most dists, but aren't put out or maintained by FSF or GNU (though most are released under the GPL). While RMS's contribution to the free software movement is great, he has a reputation of being exceedingly difficult to work with, and wants FSF to have the last say over all things having to do with Free software. He even objects to the term Open Source, and other licenses, since they dilute or destroy "fundamental rights". I sometimes think that his insistence that it be called GNU/Linux is just bitterness about HERD not being a success. But it easy to see why some of his projects had problems. The one I know well is emacs, having fought many battles with it. Back in the day when most unix-based computing was done through dumb terminals, or terminal emulators, and those terminals often used ^S as software flow control (XOFF), and ^H as backspace, he refused to change the default keymappings of emacs, which used ^S as search and ^H for help. His position was that "it isn't my fault if *your* terminal is broken", even though greater that 90% behaved like that. While it was possible remap all those by writing some elisp, it made a big barrier to new users. Many times when I introduced new people to emacs, the first time they tried to delete a mistake they got themselves buried in 20 layers of help (The more times you pressed ^H the deeper you got into the help system). many times they would try to start a serach according to the tutorial and instead would end up (apparently) locking up their terminal. (Once the remote end gets an XOFF (^S), it stops all output until it gets and XON (^Q), but most people didn't know that, and would just power-cycle their terminals and lose hours of work, and then vow to never use emacs again). Even the fact that it still uses a lisp variant as a language shows how recalcitrant RMS can be. LISP is a throwback to the early 80's, when it was the "language of the future" because of it's ties to AI. Would you use a window manager or web server that required you to program in Modula-2 or PROLOG? > The proof is that any linux newbie will not have a clue who RMS is but > will > know of Cox, Linus and perhaps even ESR. How many remember RMS's somewhat radical policy on privacy, passwords and file permissions? I remember that he used to publicly decry passwords and file permissions. His basic premise was that "data wants to be free", and that any attempt to limit access to data was violation of fundamental human rights. He used to set the password on all his accounts to 'rms' and publicize that fact. His accounts became such a common place from which to launch attacks that few places would give him one. Even his own institution (MIT) finally threatened to take away his accounts unless he started using strong passwords. Personally, I think calling it GNU/Linux does a disservice to the thousands of projects that *aren't* GNU, but are an integral par t of the linux experience. -- Mitch From dolo724 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 16 11:12:46 2001 From: dolo724 at yahoo.com (Mike Rice) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: Linux in RCHS: "Run to the laboratory and fetch me a brain!" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011216191246.67296.qmail@web13301.mail.yahoo.com> what if you disconnect the 5.25" floppy? do you really expect to use it? Also, you could mount either the CD or tape from a remote machine if required, keep the one most needed for local use. let me know if the mobo gives you trouble. mike --- Lincoln Peters wrote: > I have removed the burnt-out motherboard from the tall tower and put > the > motherboard from Mike in its place. At the moment, it has the > motherboard, > 3 hard drives of approx. 2GB apiece, a 24X CD-ROM drive, a 3.5" > floppy > drive, a 5.25" floppy drive, and a tape drive. > > I have not yet tried to turn it on because the three hard drives may > be too > much for the 230-watt power supply; there aren't enough outlets for > all of > them (and I don't have any splitters on hand). I have it running > right now > with two power supplies. > > At the moment, I am just testing the working parts for any defects. > So far, > the only parts that are giving me problems are the second two hard > drives > (both from the discarded boxes). All I need now is to find an AT > power > supply of at least 300 watts... > > _________________________________________________________________ > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From lincoln_peters at hotmail.com Sun Dec 16 17:08:59 2001 From: lincoln_peters at hotmail.com (Lincoln Peters) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: Linux in RCHS: "Run to the laboratory and fetch me a brain!" Message-ID: When I was in elementary school, every classroom had an Apple IIgs computer. The Apple II computers seem to last forever, and I can't imagine anyone throwing them away. I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere, there is a large collection of 5.25" floppies from them that one might hope to read on the newer computers. All right, that's a bit of a longshot. Not only would I need to be able to convert file formats from 15 years ago into modern formats, I would need a kernel module capable of reading the Apple ProDOS filesystem. Has anyone in the group ever tried that? If possible, I want to keep the tape drive so that I can make back-ups of the information on the system as often as possible. However, if everything goes as well as I hope and I get all 3,000 students to use this system, I'll probably need a much better tape drive than this one. The CD-ROM drive may be a necessity, but I'm not sure. If I take it out, I can try to put another hard drive in its place, in which case I'll definitely be ready to learn about software RAID at the January meeting. I'll have to see how everything goes before I make a final desision. Mike, your motherboard has been working fine. Right now, it's set up in the tall tower and I'm installing Red Hat Linux 7.2 via FTP on my network. >From: Mike Rice >Reply-To: >To: talk@nblug.org >Subject: Re: Linux in RCHS: "Run to the laboratory and fetch me a brain!" >Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 11:12:46 -0800 (PST) > >what if you disconnect the 5.25" floppy? do you really expect to use >it? Also, you could mount either the CD or tape from a remote machine >if required, keep the one most needed for local use. > >let me know if the mobo gives you trouble. > >mike > >--- Lincoln Peters wrote: > > I have removed the burnt-out motherboard from the tall tower and put > > the > > motherboard from Mike in its place. At the moment, it has the > > motherboard, > > 3 hard drives of approx. 2GB apiece, a 24X CD-ROM drive, a 3.5" > > floppy > > drive, a 5.25" floppy drive, and a tape drive. > > > > I have not yet tried to turn it on because the three hard drives may > > be too > > much for the 230-watt power supply; there aren't enough outlets for > > all of > > them (and I don't have any splitters on hand). I have it running > > right now > > with two power supplies. > > > > At the moment, I am just testing the working parts for any defects. > > So far, > > the only parts that are giving me problems are the second two hard > > drives > > (both from the discarded boxes). All I need now is to find an AT > > power > > supply of at least 300 watts... > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of >your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com >or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From warquel at hotmail.com Wed Dec 19 12:46:10 2001 From: warquel at hotmail.com (Warren Raquel) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: File Repository Message-ID: Is there a file repository that nblug hosts? I don't see any links about it on the web site. Actually, I'm just looking for the nearest server where I can get RedHat updates. From brad at linuxbofh.com Wed Dec 19 12:53:33 2001 From: brad at linuxbofh.com (Brad Cox) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: File Repository In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20011219205333.GE8264@linuxbofh.com> ftp://mirror.nblug.org/pub/mirror/ There is going to be a link in a few minutes off the info page. Thanks for bringing this up. On Wed, Dec 19, 2001 at 12:46:10PM -0800, Warren Raquel wrote: > Is there a file repository that nblug hosts? I don't see any links > about it on the web site. Actually, I'm just looking for the nearest > server where I can get RedHat updates. -- Brad Cox brad@linuxbofh.com Key fingerprint = E741 589E 4A43 DA89 C5AA B9A3 7E44 18BB C16B F62D The meek don't want it. From dustin at sonic.net Wed Dec 19 12:55:25 2001 From: dustin at sonic.net (Dustin Mollo) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: File Repository In-Reply-To: <20011219205333.GE8264@linuxbofh.com> References: <20011219205333.GE8264@linuxbofh.com> Message-ID: <20011219125525.A17226@sonic.net> On Wed, Dec 19, 2001 at 12:53:33PM -0800, Brad Cox wrote: > ftp://mirror.nblug.org/pub/mirror/ > > There is going to be a link in a few minutes off the info page. > Thanks for bringing this up. This mirror site is also available via HTTP...and rsync for that matter. http://mirror.nblug.org/ rsync://mirror.nblug.org/ Kudos to Eric for setting all this up. Now we just need a bigger hard drive ;) -Dustin From eric at eisenhart.com Wed Dec 19 12:55:34 2001 From: eric at eisenhart.com (Eric Eisenhart) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: File Repository In-Reply-To: ; from warquel@hotmail.com on Wed, Dec 19, 2001 at 12:46:10PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20011219125534.P19996@atlantic.devin.com> On Wed, Dec 19, 2001 at 12:46:10PM -0800, Warren Raquel wrote: > Is there a file repository that nblug hosts? I don't see any links about > it on the web site. Actually, I'm just looking for the nearest server > where I can get RedHat updates. Yes there is. I suppose maybe we should put something on the website about it... rsync://mirror.nblug.org/mirror/redhat/updates/ http://mirror.nblug.org/redhat/updates/ ftp://mirror.nblug.org/pub/mirror/redhat/updates/ (take your pick) -- Eric Eisenhart Freedom is slavery. http://eric.eisenhart.com/ ^ ICQ#: 48217244 Ignorance is strength. eric-dot-sig@eisenhart.com /e\ Perl&SQL Coder War is peace. IRC Nicks: Falsch Freiheit --- -- George Orwell From gordon at SONOMA.EDU Wed Dec 19 14:06:14 2001 From: gordon at SONOMA.EDU (Richard Gordon) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: Booting Linux from an internal IDE Zip disk? Message-ID: <3C210F56.4320997F@sonoma.edu> The short version of my question is this: Has anyone successfully booted Linux from an internal ATAPI Zip drive? The long version is this: In the computer labs at SSU there is a need to allow students to be root under Linux and to have a copy of Linux that they can configure and run on any computer in the lab. For this we want them to have Linux on a Zip disk. We have PCs with an internal 100MB SCSI Zip drive. Linux (weI currently use RedHat 7.1) can be installed on the disk and booted. (Yes, Linux is too large for a 100 MB Zip. The Zip disk holds all the directories except /usr which resides on the internal hard disk and is mounted by the version of Linux on the Zip.) The boot loader on the computer (either Windows NT or LILO) has an entry to boot the Zip drive. This all works. The problem is that Iomega no longer markets internal SCSI Zip drives. Anyway. we would like to switch to 250 MB drives and there never was an internal SCSI version of that drive. So, I am trying to get the same mechanism to work with an internal IDE (I guess now these are all ATAPI) drive. The computer I am using has two IDE drives and a CDROM, so once Linux is running it thinks the Zip drive is hdd. I followed all the same steps for this computer that I used to in the SSU labs. Here is the contents of lilo.conf that I used on the Zip disk: boot=/dev/hdd1 map=/boot/map install=/boot/boot.b prompt timeout=50 linear default=linux image=/boot/vmlinuz-2.4.2-2 label=linux initrd=/boot/initrd-2.4.2-2.img read-only root=/dev/hdd1 The Zip disk is mounted at /mnt/zip. When I issue the command: lilo ?r /mnt/zip I receive a warning that drive 0x83 may not be available. Sure enough, when I try to boot this Zip disk it fails with an error 0x01. My understanding of what is going on is that the bios numbers its drives starting at 0x80. Lilo has to embed one of these number in the boot record to correspond to the location of the root. Since lilo.conf claims root is on hdd1, lilo embeds the number 0x83 (had is 0x80, hdb is 0x81, etc.) The problem appears to be that the bios cannot use any drive number above 0x81 (i.e my bios can handle only two drives). If all this is correct, then I need to locate a bios that can handle drives numbered higher than 0x81. If I cannot solve this problem then I will have to resort to one of the following less desirable solutions: using external SCSI drives, or booting from some other device (e.g. a floppy) and using the Zip disk to hold the file system but not the kernel image. So my questions are: 1. If my analysis is correct, is there a bios out there that will do what I need? What is it? 2. If I am not correct, where is my explanation in error. 3. Is there some other mechanism I haven?t thought of that will work? Thanks Richard Gordon From chrisw at pacaids.com Wed Dec 19 06:53:18 2001 From: chrisw at pacaids.com (Christopher Wagner) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: Booting Linux from an internal IDE Zip disk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Can the boot disk be read-only? You may consider writing a set of CDs for students to boot from if the boot disk can be read-only. If your bios only supports two drives, how are you managing 2 hard drives and a CD-ROM? - Christopher Wagner -----Original Message----- From: Richard Gordon [mailto:gordon@SONOMA.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 2:06 PM To: talk@nblug.org Subject: Booting Linux from an internal IDE Zip disk? The short version of my question is this: Has anyone successfully booted Linux from an internal ATAPI Zip drive? The long version is this: In the computer labs at SSU there is a need to allow students to be root under Linux and to have a copy of Linux that they can configure and run on any computer in the lab. For this we want them to have Linux on a Zip disk. We have PCs with an internal 100MB SCSI Zip drive. Linux (weI currently use RedHat 7.1) can be installed on the disk and booted. (Yes, Linux is too large for a 100 MB Zip. The Zip disk holds all the directories except /usr which resides on the internal hard disk and is mounted by the version of Linux on the Zip.) The boot loader on the computer (either Windows NT or LILO) has an entry to boot the Zip drive. This all works. The problem is that Iomega no longer markets internal SCSI Zip drives. Anyway. we would like to switch to 250 MB drives and there never was an internal SCSI version of that drive. So, I am trying to get the same mechanism to work with an internal IDE (I guess now these are all ATAPI) drive. The computer I am using has two IDE drives and a CDROM, so once Linux is running it thinks the Zip drive is hdd. I followed all the same steps for this computer that I used to in the SSU labs. Here is the contents of lilo.conf that I used on the Zip disk: boot=/dev/hdd1 map=/boot/map install=/boot/boot.b prompt timeout=50 linear default=linux image=/boot/vmlinuz-2.4.2-2 label=linux initrd=/boot/initrd-2.4.2-2.img read-only root=/dev/hdd1 The Zip disk is mounted at /mnt/zip. When I issue the command: lilo ?r /mnt/zip I receive a warning that drive 0x83 may not be available. Sure enough, when I try to boot this Zip disk it fails with an error 0x01. My understanding of what is going on is that the bios numbers its drives starting at 0x80. Lilo has to embed one of these number in the boot record to correspond to the location of the root. Since lilo.conf claims root is on hdd1, lilo embeds the number 0x83 (had is 0x80, hdb is 0x81, etc.) The problem appears to be that the bios cannot use any drive number above 0x81 (i.e my bios can handle only two drives). If all this is correct, then I need to locate a bios that can handle drives numbered higher than 0x81. If I cannot solve this problem then I will have to resort to one of the following less desirable solutions: using external SCSI drives, or booting from some other device (e.g. a floppy) and using the Zip disk to hold the file system but not the kernel image. So my questions are: 1. If my analysis is correct, is there a bios out there that will do what I need? What is it? 2. If I am not correct, where is my explanation in error. 3. Is there some other mechanism I haven?t thought of that will work? Thanks Richard Gordon From gordon at SONOMA.EDU Wed Dec 19 15:15:58 2001 From: gordon at SONOMA.EDU (Richard Gordon) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: Booting Linux from an internal IDE Zip disk? References: Message-ID: <3C211FAE.59F20168@sonoma.edu> That's an idea I hadn't considered. I'll have to think about it. The way we have done labs in the past requires students to be able to alter system files (e.g. files buried in /etc), but I might be able to cirumvent that requirement and have students make the changes to the network configuration after the system is booted. As to how my system manages 2 hard drives and a CD-ROM, you have identified a gap in my understanding of the BIOS. I suppose the problem is that the BIOS does not think of the CD-ROM or the Zip drive as one of its hard drives and so does not assign numbers to them (i.e. it uses 0x80 for hda, 0x81 for hdb, but does not use 0x82 for CD-ROM or 0x83 for Zip) so it cannot boot from them. I suppose if I actually installed additional hard drives the BIOS would assign them the higher numbers. It is basically not clear to me how Linux decides that my Zip drive is hdd and that therefore it should have bios number 0x83, whereas the BIOS knows nothing about drive 0x83. I have noticed that the web sites for the latest versions of Award or Phonix BIOSes claim that they can boot from Zip disks. That doesn't explain to me how I should identify the drive that contains the root partition in lilo.conf. Christopher Wagner wrote: > Can the boot disk be read-only? You may consider writing a set of CDs for > students to boot from if the boot disk can be read-only. > > If your bios only supports two drives, how are you managing 2 hard drives > and a CD-ROM? > > - Christopher Wagner > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Gordon [mailto:gordon@SONOMA.EDU] > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 2:06 PM > To: talk@nblug.org > Subject: Booting Linux from an internal IDE Zip disk? > > The short version of my question is this: > > Has anyone successfully booted Linux from an internal ATAPI Zip drive? > > The long version is this: > > In the computer labs at SSU there is a need to allow students to be root > under Linux and to have a copy of Linux that they can configure and run > on any computer in the lab. For this we want them to have Linux on a Zip > disk. > > We have PCs with an internal 100MB SCSI Zip drive. Linux (weI currently > use RedHat 7.1) can be installed on the disk and booted. (Yes, Linux is > too large for a 100 MB Zip. The Zip disk holds all the directories > except /usr which resides on the internal hard disk and is mounted by > the version of Linux on the Zip.) The boot loader on the computer > (either Windows NT or LILO) has an entry to boot the Zip drive. This all > works. > > The problem is that Iomega no longer markets internal SCSI Zip drives. > Anyway. we would like to switch to 250 MB drives and there never was an > internal SCSI version of that drive. > > So, I am trying to get the same mechanism to work with an internal IDE > (I guess now these are all ATAPI) drive. The computer I am using has two > IDE drives and a CDROM, so once Linux is running it thinks the Zip drive > is hdd. I followed all the same steps for this computer that I used to > in the SSU labs. Here is the contents of lilo.conf that I used on the > Zip disk: > > boot=/dev/hdd1 > map=/boot/map > install=/boot/boot.b > prompt > timeout=50 > linear > default=linux > > image=/boot/vmlinuz-2.4.2-2 > label=linux > initrd=/boot/initrd-2.4.2-2.img > read-only > root=/dev/hdd1 > > The Zip disk is mounted at /mnt/zip. When I issue the command: > > lilo ?r /mnt/zip > > I receive a warning that drive 0x83 may not be available. Sure enough, > when I try to boot this Zip disk it fails with an error 0x01. > > My understanding of what is going on is that the bios numbers its drives > starting at 0x80. Lilo has to embed one of these number in the boot > record to correspond to the location of the root. Since lilo.conf claims > root is on hdd1, lilo embeds the number 0x83 (had is 0x80, hdb is 0x81, > etc.) The problem appears to be that the bios cannot use any drive > number above 0x81 (i.e my bios can handle only two drives). > > If all this is correct, then I need to locate a bios that can handle > drives numbered higher than 0x81. If I cannot solve this problem then I > will have to resort to one of the following less desirable solutions: > using external SCSI drives, or booting from some other device (e.g. a > floppy) and using the Zip disk to hold the file system but not the > kernel image. > > So my questions are: > > 1. If my analysis is correct, is there a bios out there that will do > what I need? What is it? > 2. If I am not correct, where is my explanation in error. > 3. Is there some other mechanism I haven?t thought of that will work? > > Thanks > Richard Gordon From jet at sonic.net Wed Dec 19 15:34:01 2001 From: jet at sonic.net (Mark Street) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: Booting Linux from an internal IDE Zip disk? In-Reply-To: <3C210F56.4320997F@sonoma.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011219153038.00b94da0@pop.sonic.net> I think the only choice is to put the kernel image on a boot disk and have the filesystem live on the Zip disk...... two disk distro... The BIOS limitations get you as well as Iomega's design. The Zip Disk HOWTO is a good source. Check out Dragon Linux, do a search on freshmeat. At 02:06 PM 12/19/2001 -0800, Richard Gordon wrote: >The short version of my question is this: > >Has anyone successfully booted Linux from an internal ATAPI Zip drive? > >The long version is this: > >In the computer labs at SSU there is a need to allow students to be root >under Linux and to have a copy of Linux that they can configure and run >on any computer in the lab. For this we want them to have Linux on a Zip >disk. > >We have PCs with an internal 100MB SCSI Zip drive. Linux (weI currently >use RedHat 7.1) can be installed on the disk and booted. (Yes, Linux is >too large for a 100 MB Zip. The Zip disk holds all the directories >except /usr which resides on the internal hard disk and is mounted by >the version of Linux on the Zip.) The boot loader on the computer >(either Windows NT or LILO) has an entry to boot the Zip drive. This all >works. > >The problem is that Iomega no longer markets internal SCSI Zip drives. >Anyway. we would like to switch to 250 MB drives and there never was an >internal SCSI version of that drive. > >So, I am trying to get the same mechanism to work with an internal IDE >(I guess now these are all ATAPI) drive. The computer I am using has two >IDE drives and a CDROM, so once Linux is running it thinks the Zip drive >is hdd. I followed all the same steps for this computer that I used to >in the SSU labs. Here is the contents of lilo.conf that I used on the >Zip disk: > >boot=/dev/hdd1 >map=/boot/map >install=/boot/boot.b >prompt >timeout=50 >linear >default=linux > >image=/boot/vmlinuz-2.4.2-2 > label=linux > initrd=/boot/initrd-2.4.2-2.img > read-only > root=/dev/hdd1 > >The Zip disk is mounted at /mnt/zip. When I issue the command: > >lilo ?r /mnt/zip > >I receive a warning that drive 0x83 may not be available. Sure enough, >when I try to boot this Zip disk it fails with an error 0x01. > >My understanding of what is going on is that the bios numbers its drives >starting at 0x80. Lilo has to embed one of these number in the boot >record to correspond to the location of the root. Since lilo.conf claims >root is on hdd1, lilo embeds the number 0x83 (had is 0x80, hdb is 0x81, >etc.) The problem appears to be that the bios cannot use any drive >number above 0x81 (i.e my bios can handle only two drives). > >If all this is correct, then I need to locate a bios that can handle >drives numbered higher than 0x81. If I cannot solve this problem then I >will have to resort to one of the following less desirable solutions: >using external SCSI drives, or booting from some other device (e.g. a >floppy) and using the Zip disk to hold the file system but not the >kernel image. > >So my questions are: > >1. If my analysis is correct, is there a bios out there that will do >what I need? What is it? >2. If I am not correct, where is my explanation in error. >3. Is there some other mechanism I haven?t thought of that will work? > >Thanks >Richard Gordon > > > > >--- > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release Date: 12/4/2001 -------------- next part -------------- --- Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release Date: 12/4/2001 From dustin at sonic.net Wed Dec 19 15:46:55 2001 From: dustin at sonic.net (Dustin Mollo) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: Booting Linux from an internal IDE Zip disk? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011219153038.00b94da0@pop.sonic.net> References: <3C210F56.4320997F@sonoma.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20011219153038.00b94da0@pop.sonic.net> Message-ID: <20011219154655.A468@sonic.net> That's kinda funny...I hadn't thought to look to see if there was a Zip Disk HOWTO. I can impart one more piece of information from when I looked at this yesterday. The Zip drive is seen in Linux as an IDE floppy. Don't ask me why, but that's the driver that the Linux Care boot disk I had seemed to try to load (but didn't exist). The even more odd thing, though, is that durring probing (durring boot), the Zip drive was found and given the device /dev/hdd...rather odd. I've never played with IDE Zip drives, and the machine here at work didn't ship with one, so I can't reproduce his environment. Anyone out there have a setup with an IDE Zip drive in it that could maybe shed some more light on how the drive appears in Linux? -Dustin On Wed, Dec 19, 2001 at 03:34:01PM -0800, Mark Street wrote: > I think the only choice is to put the kernel image on a boot disk and have > the filesystem live on the Zip disk...... two disk distro... The BIOS > limitations get you as well as Iomega's design. > > The Zip Disk HOWTO is a good source. > > Check out Dragon Linux, do a search on freshmeat. > > At 02:06 PM 12/19/2001 -0800, Richard Gordon wrote: > > >The short version of my question is this: > > > >Has anyone successfully booted Linux from an internal ATAPI Zip drive? > > > >The long version is this: > > > >In the computer labs at SSU there is a need to allow students to be root > >under Linux and to have a copy of Linux that they can configure and run > >on any computer in the lab. For this we want them to have Linux on a Zip > >disk. > > > >We have PCs with an internal 100MB SCSI Zip drive. Linux (weI currently > >use RedHat 7.1) can be installed on the disk and booted. (Yes, Linux is > >too large for a 100 MB Zip. The Zip disk holds all the directories > >except /usr which resides on the internal hard disk and is mounted by > >the version of Linux on the Zip.) The boot loader on the computer > >(either Windows NT or LILO) has an entry to boot the Zip drive. This all > >works. > > > >The problem is that Iomega no longer markets internal SCSI Zip drives. > >Anyway. we would like to switch to 250 MB drives and there never was an > >internal SCSI version of that drive. > > > >So, I am trying to get the same mechanism to work with an internal IDE > >(I guess now these are all ATAPI) drive. The computer I am using has two > >IDE drives and a CDROM, so once Linux is running it thinks the Zip drive > >is hdd. I followed all the same steps for this computer that I used to > >in the SSU labs. Here is the contents of lilo.conf that I used on the > >Zip disk: > > > >boot=/dev/hdd1 > >map=/boot/map > >install=/boot/boot.b > >prompt > >timeout=50 > >linear > >default=linux > > > >image=/boot/vmlinuz-2.4.2-2 > > label=linux > > initrd=/boot/initrd-2.4.2-2.img > > read-only > > root=/dev/hdd1 > > > >The Zip disk is mounted at /mnt/zip. When I issue the command: > > > >lilo ?r /mnt/zip > > > >I receive a warning that drive 0x83 may not be available. Sure enough, > >when I try to boot this Zip disk it fails with an error 0x01. > > > >My understanding of what is going on is that the bios numbers its drives > >starting at 0x80. Lilo has to embed one of these number in the boot > >record to correspond to the location of the root. Since lilo.conf claims > >root is on hdd1, lilo embeds the number 0x83 (had is 0x80, hdb is 0x81, > >etc.) The problem appears to be that the bios cannot use any drive > >number above 0x81 (i.e my bios can handle only two drives). > > > >If all this is correct, then I need to locate a bios that can handle > >drives numbered higher than 0x81. If I cannot solve this problem then I > >will have to resort to one of the following less desirable solutions: > >using external SCSI drives, or booting from some other device (e.g. a > >floppy) and using the Zip disk to hold the file system but not the > >kernel image. > > > >So my questions are: > > > >1. If my analysis is correct, is there a bios out there that will do > >what I need? What is it? > >2. If I am not correct, where is my explanation in error. > >3. Is there some other mechanism I haven?t thought of that will work? > > > >Thanks > >Richard Gordon > > > > > > > > > >--- > > > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > >Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release Date: 12/4/2001 > > --- > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release Date: 12/4/2001 From brad at linuxbofh.com Wed Dec 19 15:57:46 2001 From: brad at linuxbofh.com (Brad Cox) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: Booting Linux from an internal IDE Zip disk? In-Reply-To: <3C210F56.4320997F@sonoma.edu> References: <3C210F56.4320997F@sonoma.edu> Message-ID: <20011219235746.GA5866@linuxbofh.com> On Wed, Dec 19, 2001 at 02:06:14PM -0800, Richard Gordon wrote: > In the computer labs at SSU there is a need to allow students to be > root under Linux and to have a copy of Linux that they can configure > and run on any computer in the lab. For this we want them to have > Linux on a Zip disk. You may as well give them root on the box in question, as once they boot their own copy, gaining root on the real box is trivial. You should consider using VMWare (an x86 emulator, www.vmware.com). It will let them run Linux (or other x86 OS's) from within Linux, but on the real system they remain themselves, so no security issues. VMWare can present files on the disk to the OS it is running as if they were hard drives, so their root partition could be on the zip disk and /usr could be off the network (you should not let them access the real one). It has a feature that would enable them to work with a disk, but without making any changes to the actual filesystem. They can explore, break things, etc. When they shut down vmware, everything is back where it should be. -- Brad Cox brad@linuxbofh.com Key fingerprint = E741 589E 4A43 DA89 C5AA B9A3 7E44 18BB C16B F62D "Nuclear war can ruin your whole compile." -- Karl Lehenbauer From frankb at efball.com Wed Dec 19 16:58:56 2001 From: frankb at efball.com (E Frank Ball) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: Booting Linux from an internal IDE Zip disk? In-Reply-To: <20011219154655.A468@sonic.net>; from dustin@sonic.net on Wed, Dec 19, 2001 at 03:46:55PM -0800 References: <3C210F56.4320997F@sonoma.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20011219153038.00b94da0@pop.sonic.net> <20011219154655.A468@sonic.net> Message-ID: <20011219165856.F6335@zouave.sonic.net> On Wed, Dec 19, 2001 at 03:46:55PM -0800, Dustin Mollo wrote: } } I've never played with IDE Zip drives, and the machine here at work didn't } ship with one, so I can't reproduce his environment. Anyone out there have } a setup with an IDE Zip drive in it that could maybe shed some more light on } how the drive appears in Linux? zouave:/dev 48% ll zip lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 9 Jan 15 2001 zip -> /dev/hdb4 penguin:/dev 167% ll zip lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 4 Feb 27 2001 zip -> hdc4 frizzen:/dev 45% ll zip lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 4 Jul 15 2000 zip -> sda4 The first two are internal ATAPI, the last is internal SCSI. In my first example an internal ATAPI drive is a slave on the primary IDE controller and shows up as drive "B". Shouldn't it be possible to boot from this device? (I haven't tried and I'm not going to for a number of reasons). -- E Frank Ball efball@efball.com From dustin at sonic.net Wed Dec 19 17:01:58 2001 From: dustin at sonic.net (Dustin Mollo) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: Booting Linux from an internal IDE Zip disk? In-Reply-To: <20011219165856.F6335@zouave.sonic.net> References: <3C210F56.4320997F@sonoma.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20011219153038.00b94da0@pop.sonic.net> <20011219154655.A468@sonic.net> <20011219165856.F6335@zouave.sonic.net> Message-ID: <20011219170158.A7323@sonic.net> On Wed, Dec 19, 2001 at 04:58:56PM -0800, E Frank Ball wrote: > In my first example an internal ATAPI drive is a slave on the primary > IDE controller and shows up as drive "B". Shouldn't it be possible to > boot from this device? (I haven't tried and I'm not going to for a > number of reasons). Hmm...do you have a modular kernel? If so, do you see ide-floppy loaded? Yes, you SHOULD be able to boot from the Zip drive. I have questions as to whether or not LILO can boot from a Zip drive (well...ATAPI at least). I also suspect that there MAY be a configuration issue with the lilo.conf file being used to write LILO to the Zip disk. I just don't have a suitable test environment to play with... -Dustin From frankb at efball.com Wed Dec 19 17:13:50 2001 From: frankb at efball.com (E Frank Ball) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: Booting Linux from an internal IDE Zip disk? In-Reply-To: <20011219170158.A7323@sonic.net>; from dustin@sonic.net on Wed, Dec 19, 2001 at 05:01:58PM -0800 References: <3C210F56.4320997F@sonoma.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20011219153038.00b94da0@pop.sonic.net> <20011219154655.A468@sonic.net> <20011219165856.F6335@zouave.sonic.net> <20011219170158.A7323@sonic.net> Message-ID: <20011219171350.G6335@zouave.sonic.net> On Wed, Dec 19, 2001 at 05:01:58PM -0800, Dustin Mollo wrote: } On Wed, Dec 19, 2001 at 04:58:56PM -0800, E Frank Ball wrote: } > In my first example an internal ATAPI drive is a slave on the primary } > IDE controller and shows up as drive "B". Shouldn't it be possible to } > boot from this device? (I haven't tried and I'm not going to for a } > number of reasons). } } Hmm...do you have a modular kernel? If so, do you see ide-floppy loaded? If I mount a zip disc ide-floppy gets loaded. } Yes, you SHOULD be able to boot from the Zip drive. I have questions as to } whether or not LILO can boot from a Zip drive (well...ATAPI at least). I } also suspect that there MAY be a configuration issue with the lilo.conf file } being used to write LILO to the Zip disk. It might work better if the zip drive was reformatted to ext2 (which I usually do anyway). I'm not sure about how a master boot sector would work on a zip drive. -- E Frank Ball efball@efball.com From jet at sonic.net Wed Dec 19 17:21:40 2001 From: jet at sonic.net (Mark Street) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: Booting Linux from an internal IDE Zip disk? In-Reply-To: <20011219154655.A468@sonic.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011219153038.00b94da0@pop.sonic.net> <3C210F56.4320997F@sonoma.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20011219153038.00b94da0@pop.sonic.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011219172012.00b71870@pop.sonic.net> At 03:46 PM 12/19/2001 -0800, Dustin Mollo wrote: >That's kinda funny...I hadn't thought to look to see if there was a Zip Disk >HOWTO. Hehehe, use your resources.... This is a Deb install example. Have Fun!!! http://flynn.zork.net/~edwardsj1/howto/IDE-Zip-Install.html From dustin at sonic.net Wed Dec 19 17:21:56 2001 From: dustin at sonic.net (Dustin Mollo) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: Booting Linux from an internal IDE Zip disk? In-Reply-To: <20011219171350.G6335@zouave.sonic.net> References: <3C210F56.4320997F@sonoma.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20011219153038.00b94da0@pop.sonic.net> <20011219154655.A468@sonic.net> <20011219165856.F6335@zouave.sonic.net> <20011219170158.A7323@sonic.net> <20011219171350.G6335@zouave.sonic.net> Message-ID: <20011219172156.A8559@sonic.net> On Wed, Dec 19, 2001 at 05:13:50PM -0800, E Frank Ball wrote: > On Wed, Dec 19, 2001 at 05:01:58PM -0800, Dustin Mollo wrote: > } Yes, you SHOULD be able to boot from the Zip drive. I have questions as to > } whether or not LILO can boot from a Zip drive (well...ATAPI at least). I > } also suspect that there MAY be a configuration issue with the lilo.conf file > } being used to write LILO to the Zip disk. > > It might work better if the zip drive was reformatted to ext2 (which I > usually do anyway). I'm not sure about how a master boot sector would > work on a zip drive. In theory, it shouldn't make a difference. It all should just work. I'm suspecting, however, that LILO either isn't config'd properly, or it doesn't like living on the ATAPI Zip drive/disk. The disk he has is ext2 formatted. I suggested the floppy/Zip combo. It would seem to solve all problems and any future ones. Sure, it's a bit more cumbersome, but potentially could be extremely more flexable. In an ideal world, I'd love to suggest Brad's idea of VMWare. I hadn't thought of that...and I'm surprised about that actually. hehe... Considering the budget issues, though, I doubt buying 30 copies of VMWare would make it very far. It does open up a LARGE number of other possibilities, though. -Dustin From mkirk at sonic.net Wed Dec 19 17:23:37 2001 From: mkirk at sonic.net (Matt Kirk) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: Booting Linux from an internal IDE Zip disk? Message-ID: It is a great idea, however, I think it would be too expensive a solution. Richard, from what I remember about the computers in the lab, the bios was old and wouldn't support booting onto an ide zip drive. This was why scsi was purchased in the first place. New bios' should allow you to boot to IDE (I think mine does and I will test it when I get home.) Are you replacing the lab computers with new ones? If you could get an educational discount for the VMWare it may be worth it for you as it will save you and your staff lots of time in management. A third option might be to have a floopy for boot, a zip for a RW file system and a CDRom for your static filesystem. You could then just burn a new CD every time you needed to make changes to the static filesystem (where before your had to update every computer). Students will still beable to mount the local linux filesystem as root though. -- Matt Kirk - mkirk@sonic.net Opportunity Development Manager Sonic.net, Inc. 707.522.1000 (Voice) 300 B Street, Ste 101 707.547.2199 (Fax) Santa Rosa, CA 95404 707-547-3400 (Support) http://www.sonic.net/ Fingerprint = 55 8A D3 7B 5E 93 FA 7F 19 74 BB A4 2C EF AD A0 -----Original Message----- From: Brad Cox [mailto:brad@linuxbofh.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 3:58 PM To: talk@nblug.org Subject: Re: Booting Linux from an internal IDE Zip disk? On Wed, Dec 19, 2001 at 02:06:14PM -0800, Richard Gordon wrote: > In the computer labs at SSU there is a need to allow students to be > root under Linux and to have a copy of Linux that they can configure > and run on any computer in the lab. For this we want them to have > Linux on a Zip disk. You may as well give them root on the box in question, as once they boot their own copy, gaining root on the real box is trivial. You should consider using VMWare (an x86 emulator, www.vmware.com). It will let them run Linux (or other x86 OS's) from within Linux, but on the real system they remain themselves, so no security issues. VMWare can present files on the disk to the OS it is running as if they were hard drives, so their root partition could be on the zip disk and /usr could be off the network (you should not let them access the real one). It has a feature that would enable them to work with a disk, but without making any changes to the actual filesystem. They can explore, break things, etc. When they shut down vmware, everything is back where it should be. -- Brad Cox brad@linuxbofh.com Key fingerprint = E741 589E 4A43 DA89 C5AA B9A3 7E44 18BB C16B F62D "Nuclear war can ruin your whole compile." -- Karl Lehenbauer From metalgrow at cds1.net Wed Dec 19 18:27:06 2001 From: metalgrow at cds1.net (David Cole) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: Booting Linux from an internal IDE Zip disk? References: <3C210F56.4320997F@sonoma.edu> Message-ID: <008a01c188fd$e3cf4680$0d0a0a0a@thinkpad> Richard, You can definitely boot from a 10cent CD, and have the files and folders you want to customize (like var. and user folders and logs), mounted on your zip. Just like you mount different folders on different harddrives. Linux doesn't handle CDs and Harddrives that differently, other than Linux will error if it tries to write to the CD. (Remember a script to copy these user folders onto the zip if linux find the zip empty. In that case I'd ask the user if he wanted the zip setup, then have the script copy, then go to a reboot to start over) Think of it as the standard bootable distribution CD with the user folders mounted on the zip. Just like you can mount these folders on separate HDs. It takes less time to manage a CD distribution. I'd also consider instead a CD & diskette pair, editing the linux to be as read only as possible. This would allow the student to use almost any computer. David Cole ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Gordon" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 2:06 PM Subject: Booting Linux from an internal IDE Zip disk? > The short version of my question is this: > > Has anyone successfully booted Linux from an internal ATAPI Zip drive? > > The long version is this: > > In the computer labs at SSU there is a need to allow students to be root > under Linux and to have a copy of Linux that they can configure and run > on any computer in the lab. For this we want them to have Linux on a Zip > disk. > > We have PCs with an internal 100MB SCSI Zip drive. Linux (weI currently > use RedHat 7.1) can be installed on the disk and booted. (Yes, Linux is > too large for a 100 MB Zip. The Zip disk holds all the directories > except /usr which resides on the internal hard disk and is mounted by > the version of Linux on the Zip.) The boot loader on the computer > (either Windows NT or LILO) has an entry to boot the Zip drive. This all > works. > > The problem is that Iomega no longer markets internal SCSI Zip drives. > Anyway. we would like to switch to 250 MB drives and there never was an > internal SCSI version of that drive. > > So, I am trying to get the same mechanism to work with an internal IDE > (I guess now these are all ATAPI) drive. The computer I am using has two > IDE drives and a CDROM, so once Linux is running it thinks the Zip drive > is hdd. I followed all the same steps for this computer that I used to > in the SSU labs. Here is the contents of lilo.conf that I used on the > Zip disk: > > boot=/dev/hdd1 > map=/boot/map > install=/boot/boot.b > prompt > timeout=50 > linear > default=linux > > image=/boot/vmlinuz-2.4.2-2 > label=linux > initrd=/boot/initrd-2.4.2-2.img > read-only > root=/dev/hdd1 > > The Zip disk is mounted at /mnt/zip. When I issue the command: > > lilo -r /mnt/zip > > I receive a warning that drive 0x83 may not be available. Sure enough, > when I try to boot this Zip disk it fails with an error 0x01. > > My understanding of what is going on is that the bios numbers its drives > starting at 0x80. Lilo has to embed one of these number in the boot > record to correspond to the location of the root. Since lilo.conf claims > root is on hdd1, lilo embeds the number 0x83 (had is 0x80, hdb is 0x81, > etc.) The problem appears to be that the bios cannot use any drive > number above 0x81 (i.e my bios can handle only two drives). > > If all this is correct, then I need to locate a bios that can handle > drives numbered higher than 0x81. If I cannot solve this problem then I > will have to resort to one of the following less desirable solutions: > using external SCSI drives, or booting from some other device (e.g. a > floppy) and using the Zip disk to hold the file system but not the > kernel image. > > So my questions are: > > 1. If my analysis is correct, is there a bios out there that will do > what I need? What is it? > 2. If I am not correct, where is my explanation in error. > 3. Is there some other mechanism I haven't thought of that will work? > > Thanks > Richard Gordon > From metalgrow at cds1.net Wed Dec 19 20:17:58 2001 From: metalgrow at cds1.net (David Cole) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: Making a Bootable Linux CD? References: Message-ID: <00e201c1890d$4f5f2460$0d0a0a0a@thinkpad> Richard, If you go with a bootable CD. I'd also recommend not having linux mount the hard drives. This would keep your systems secure from the majority of the students. Locks just keep the honest honest, and the lazy in entropy. ( Those that have the know how to mount your hard drives could easily hack into your systems anyway. They would just put in a generic bootable linux CD and boot ) David From gordon at sonoma.edu Wed Dec 19 22:56:05 2001 From: gordon at sonoma.edu (Richard Gordon) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:32 2005 Subject: Booting Linux from an internal IDE Zip disk? References: <3C210F56.4320997F@sonoma.edu> <008a01c188fd$e3cf4680$0d0a0a0a@thinkpad> Message-ID: <3C218B85.61FF9079@sonoma.edu> I appreciate all the suggestions. I will be pursuing a few of them as soon as I can find a spare computer at work. Here are a few comments: 1. Not that it matters, but the reason we used SCSI Zip drives originally was to support Minix, not Linux, and Minix does not support IDE drives. It does, however, fit entirely within 30 Mbytes, so we could put several Minix images on one Zip disk. We did not want to use floppies because one of the exercises students did with Minix was to modify and recompile the kernel and floppies make the process slower and more cumbersome. 2. We know that our machines are not secure, but we cannot make them secure and still allow students to do the kinds of exercises we require. The goal, however, is to eliminate accidental modification of the systems on the hard disks. Nobody has ever abused the freedome we allow. 3. If we cannot get Linux to work without a floppy then we will use a floppy for the kernel. It just seems a little neater to avoid the floppy. 4. We probably won't burn CDs. It is something we have to do for the students, whereas the mechanism using Zips (and floppies) can be done by students using files we place on our server. Also CDs will be slow even compared to Zip disks, and we still need the Zip disks for the files students will be creating or modifying. 5. I plan to test Frank Ball's configuration with the Zip drive as a slave on the primary IDE controller. I hope that if I can get the Zip to appear as hdb then it can be booted. 6. Yes, we have "old" PCs with an old BIOS. I have been trying to get my hands on a newer BIOS, one with support for booting from Zip drives, but so far without success. Even if I could specify in the BIOS to boot from the Zip drive I would still have to know the bios number for the drive so that I could put that into lilo.conf for the root partition. 7. And yes, we are planning for new labs, not replacements of our old PCs. Fortunately when we bought the PCs for the lab we bought extras for faculty, so we have a bunch of SCSI Zip drives that we can use as those in the lab break. 8. The VMWare idea seemed interesting until someone noted that it costs money. Matt Kirk probably had it right when he suggested that it would be too expensive a solution. If it costs money we probably cannot afford to do it. Most software, no matter how reasonable in price, becomes expensive when you have to install it on 20 or 40 or 80 computers. 9. All that said, I would still like to get the Zip disk to boot without a floppy. Does anyone out there have a BIOS with support for booting a Zip drive? If so, can you tell me who makes the BIOS and what motherboard came with that BIOS (and even who made the computers.) Oh yes, and if you have tested it, does it work? Richard Gordon From dugan at passwall.com Wed Dec 19 23:33:47 2001 From: dugan at passwall.com (ME) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: Booting Linux from an internal IDE Zip disk? In-Reply-To: <3C218B85.61FF9079@sonoma.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Richard Gordon wrote: > 9. All that said, I would still like to get the Zip disk to boot > without a floppy. Does anyone out there have a BIOS with support for > booting a Zip drive? If so, can you tell me who makes the BIOS and > what motherboard came with that BIOS (and even who made the > computers.) Oh yes, and if you have tested it, does it work? Guess what I did today? Installed Windows 98 on a machine to format and sys a zip disk, then copied some DOS utils/apps, then copy LOADLIN.EXE an a simple batch program, then copied a compiled Linux kernel for use with LOADLIN.EXE, and created a small Debian tree (85Mb) and cp -aR the files over NFS to a loopback based ext style Lin UX image on another system (because the 85Mb install of Debian 2.2 did not have kernel support for the zip, and I was too lazy to compile yet another kernel for the Debian install disk) with a 90 Mb image file, and then configured a Dell OptiPlex 300 to recognize the ATAPI ZIP drive as a bootable device, added it to the list of bootable devices in the BIOS, increased its priority to be first (Zip is secondary slave on this machine ) disconnected the HD just to be certain, and I was able to get the The Zip disk to boot with DOS, then run LOADLIN for the kernel, and have it reference the root.bin image. The kernel started up just fine from the Zip disk I booted from, but got a kernel panic when trying to mount / (prob because I forgot to include initrd and full ramdisk support as part of the kernel loaded with loadlin. I suspect I could get the whole thing working given an hour or so and a fresh new kernel.) This could make a good 1 unit senior project. ;-) All of the above testing and sampling prove to me that it is possible to boot from a Zip Disk without using a floppy or CDROM if the BIOS supports it directly as a bootable device. Another solution might be to not use a loopback/image but instead use umsdos and allow for the Zip to remain a vfat/fat system. This has the bad effect of being inefficient for the many small files that would be better handled by ext2, ext3 or reiserfs. (Not to mention the overhead of the extra ownership bits/security that would be fabricated/read for all file IO over vfat on-the-fly. :-/ ) To get LILO to recognize the device as a boot device when the BIOS does not would probably take more work, assuming it is possible. (did not spend much time on this path.) Instead of Windows 98, it could probably use freedos, or another non MS alternative to be more open/free. I can show you what I have if you want, but it is only tested for this model Dell. It has risks: Allowing people to boot from arbitrary media leaves you at risk for viruses (esp bootsector) to all writable drives on the machine. +All other risks mentioned up 'till now -ME -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.12 GCS/CM$/IT$/LS$/S/O$ !d--(++) !s !a+++(-----) C++$(++++) U++++$(+$) P+$>+++ L+++$(++) E W+++$(+) N+ o K w+$>++>+++ O-@ M+$ V-$>- !PS !PE Y+ !PGP t@-(++) 5+@ X@ R- tv- b++ DI+++ D+ G--@ e+>++>++++ h(++)>+ r*>? z? ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ decode: http://www.ebb.org/ungeek/ about: http://www.geekcode.com/geek.html From schwer at sonic.net Wed Dec 19 22:32:36 2001 From: schwer at sonic.net (augie) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: a word of caution about Mandrake 8.1 Message-ID: <200112201432.fBKEWHA31734@buzz.sonic.net> thinking of getting that geek in your life a set of mandrake 8.1 cd's? think again... i recently got some mandrake 8.1 cd's and upon installing got an error about the kernel package having errors when it installed, and sure enough after i continued on and finished the install and rebooted it was failure city on my screen. i poked around a bit and it looked like a bunch of stuff didn't get compiled into the kernel nor did they get compiled as modules. one that comes to mind is support for the iso9660 file system. the good new though is after i reconfigured and recompiled the kernel everything is working great! thats my 2 cents and i hope this helps someone out there. --augie From webscribe at lastpioneers.com Thu Dec 20 08:09:33 2001 From: webscribe at lastpioneers.com (kory white) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: Booting Linux from an internal IDE Zip disk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm trying to do the same thing...or kind of the same thing on a Mac G4...the problem I'm having is tweaking my system so that it recognizes the Zip drive (it is an ATAPI) as a bootable device. Any ideas? Also, I have a doorstop PC that I have been trying to install Linux on....Red Hat 6.2.....it's a 200mHZ, 6x86L processor, 64 megs RAM, 6 gig hard drive.....I've partitioned the drive with /, swap, bootloader and home.....even with minimal packages selected it barfs during the package installation and ejects the CD....any ideas? thanks kory on 12/19/01 11:33 PM, ME at dugan@passwall.com wrote: > On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Richard Gordon wrote: >> 9. All that said, I would still like to get the Zip disk to boot >> without a floppy. Does anyone out there have a BIOS with support for >> booting a Zip drive? If so, can you tell me who makes the BIOS and >> what motherboard came with that BIOS (and even who made the >> computers.) Oh yes, and if you have tested it, does it work? > > Guess what I did today? > > Installed Windows 98 on a machine to format and sys a zip disk, then > copied some DOS utils/apps, then copy LOADLIN.EXE an a simple batch > program, then copied a compiled Linux kernel for use with LOADLIN.EXE, and > created a small Debian tree (85Mb) and cp -aR the files over NFS to a > loopback based ext style Lin UX image on another system (because the 85Mb > install of Debian 2.2 did not have kernel support for the zip, and I was > too lazy to compile yet another kernel for the Debian install disk) with a > 90 Mb image file, and then configured a Dell OptiPlex 300 to recognize the > ATAPI ZIP drive as a bootable device, added it to the list of bootable > devices in the BIOS, increased its priority to be first (Zip is secondary > slave on this machine ) disconnected the HD just to be certain, and I was > able to get the The Zip disk to boot with DOS, then run LOADLIN for the > kernel, and have it reference the root.bin image. > > The kernel started up just fine from the Zip disk I booted from, but got a > kernel panic when trying to mount / (prob because I forgot to include > initrd and full ramdisk support as part of the kernel loaded with loadlin. > I suspect I could get the whole thing working given an hour or so and a > fresh new kernel.) > > This could make a good 1 unit senior project. ;-) > > All of the above testing and sampling prove to me that it is possible to > boot from a Zip Disk without using a floppy or CDROM if the BIOS supports > it directly as a bootable device. > > Another solution might be to not use a loopback/image but instead use > umsdos and allow for the Zip to remain a vfat/fat system. This has the bad > effect of being inefficient for the many small files that would be better > handled by ext2, ext3 or reiserfs. (Not to mention the overhead of the > extra ownership bits/security that would be fabricated/read for all file > IO over vfat on-the-fly. :-/ ) > > To get LILO to recognize the device as a boot device when the BIOS does not > would probably take more work, assuming it is possible. (did not spend > much time on this path.) > > Instead of Windows 98, it could probably use freedos, or another non MS > alternative to be more open/free. > > I can show you what I have if you want, but it is only tested for this > model Dell. > > It has risks: > Allowing people to boot from arbitrary media leaves you at risk for > viruses (esp bootsector) to all writable drives on the machine. > +All other risks mentioned up 'till now > > -ME > > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > Version: 3.12 > GCS/CM$/IT$/LS$/S/O$ !d--(++) !s !a+++(-----) C++$(++++) U++++$(+$) P+$>+++ > L+++$(++) E W+++$(+) N+ o K w+$>++>+++ O-@ M+$ V-$>- !PS !PE Y+ !PGP > t@-(++) 5+@ X@ R- tv- b++ DI+++ D+ G--@ e+>++>++++ h(++)>+ r*>? z? > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > decode: http://www.ebb.org/ungeek/ about: http://www.geekcode.com/geek.html > From warquel at hotmail.com Thu Dec 20 10:00:48 2001 From: warquel at hotmail.com (Warren Raquel) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: Mailing List Archive Message-ID: Is there a mailing list archive available somewhere? From tengel at sonic.net Thu Dec 20 10:18:20 2001 From: tengel at sonic.net (Troy Engel) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: RCHS donation status In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20011220101820.B26236@sonic.net> What stuff is still needed? I have a bunch of ethernet cards, some sound stuff, a modem or two, a voodoo1 card, and many other odds and ends I'd love to get rid of. The catch: I live in Mill Valley, someone has to come get it all. I have more cables than you can shake a stick at, ide/floppy/scsi. I also recently built a machine out of parts that I want to sell *cheap* (can't give it away :) ). It's a PIII-450, 128meg RAM, ATI Radeon VE video, 8.5gig IDE drive. I'm looking for, what, maybe $150? Whatever is fair price. It's a good performer, nice motherboard. I also have two extra SCSI cd burners, one a 4x write and the other a 8x write. I'd like to get a couple bucks for them (I didn't put them in the above machine, as I don't have a SCSI card). All parts 100% linux friendly, and most of it high quality (3com or SMC nics, the good kind, e.g.). All in beautiful Mill Valley. :) -te On Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 10:54:03AM -0700, CalHerrmann wrote: > Verrry late response, but if any use to someone: > > >The purpose of this email is to begin organizing any donations for > >Lincoln's use at Rancho Cotati High School. > > If another would be useful, I have available an old Packard-Bell, > 133MHz pentium, 49M Ram, 6xCD, 10/100 ethernet card. 1.2G IDE HD > (_might_ be able to find a 4G to add). Corel Linux. > Possible idea: if some student interested in the net could link with > other schools, available surplus stuff could be directed to any need > in the county. > > Cal Herrmann > > > >__________________________________________________ -- Troy Engel GPG KeyID: DF3D5207 From dugan at passwall.com Thu Dec 20 11:14:31 2001 From: dugan at passwall.com (ME) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: Booting Linux from an internal IDE Zip disk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, kory white wrote: > I'm trying to do the same thing...or kind of the same thing on a Mac > G4...the problem I'm having is tweaking my system so that it recognizes the > Zip drive (it is an ATAPI) as a bootable device. Any ideas? My knowledge on this has been limited to what I have heard from others, so please only take the following as rumor - not fact: The beige series G3 machines that had Zip Drives completely lacked the ability to boot from the built-in Zip, though later firmware upgrades may have changed this. Blue and White series G3 and G4 machines with the open Firmware were targeted by some that were trying to do this exact thing. Te most obvious/easiest approach (conventional?) would be to check your apple conrol panels and look for one that is called "Boot Devices" or something like that. It allows you to choose what device you would like to have your machine boot from and in what order. If Zip is officially supported for booting by your G3/G4, then the Zip devices should be listed here as an option to choose. (Examples that I am certain are available include Fixed Disk, CD-ROM, and Network booting http://mike.passwall.com/macnc/ ) If the traditional approach (above) does not allow you to get Zip booting to work, then the next step would be to research OpenFirmware for your mac. > Also, I have a doorstop PC that I have been trying to install Linux > on....Red Hat 6.2.....it's a 200mHZ, 6x86L processor, 64 megs RAM, 6 gig > hard drive.....I've partitioned the drive with /, swap, bootloader and > home.....even with minimal packages selected it barfs during the package > installation and ejects the CD....any ideas? Not a redhat guy. Others here may be able to offer more help. Could you be more specific on the error message that appears, and at what stage during the install process it occurs? (This is information they would likely need to better diagnose the problem.) Non-distro-specific: bad CD-ROM drive, disk was written on a CD-RW drive with a CD-RW disk and your CD-ROM drive is only a normal CD-ROM that may have limited ability to read CD-RW disks, bad hardware (memory, excess heat due to over-clocking, excess heat generated by the HD and CD-ROM during heavy load of file copy/install) bad sectors on the HD (did you scan for bad blocks during fs format? Good idea - esp on older machines.) RH people may have some more specific suggestions based on your feedback. -ME -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.12 GCS/CM$/IT$/LS$/S/O$ !d--(++) !s !a+++(-----) C++$(++++) U++++$(+$) P+$>+++ L+++$(++) E W+++$(+) N+ o K w+$>++>+++ O-@ M+$ V-$>- !PS !PE Y+ !PGP t@-(++) 5+@ X@ R- tv- b++ DI+++ D+ G--@ e+>++>++++ h(++)>+ r*>? z? ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ decode: http://www.ebb.org/ungeek/ about: http://www.geekcode.com/geek.html From dustin at sonic.net Thu Dec 20 16:36:13 2001 From: dustin at sonic.net (Dustin Mollo) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: Mailing List Archive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20011220163613.C18312@sonic.net> On Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 10:00:48AM -0800, Warren Raquel wrote: > Is there a mailing list archive available somewhere? Alas, no there isn't. It was my hope to create one eventually. I've got pretty much every email the talk list has seen saved away in the hopes that one day we can set one of these up. I'd love to see suggestions. I'm assuming we are talking about a web-based archive here. I'd love to see one that had each month seperated into it's own page...had a thread view to the list (instead of just a date-ordered list)...and most importantly had a search engine. Granted, the search doesn't need to be part of the software that maintains the archive, but I wouldn't want to put up an archive w/o the search engine. -Dustin From tengel at sonic.net Thu Dec 20 18:09:58 2001 From: tengel at sonic.net (Troy Engel) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: Mailing List Archive In-Reply-To: <20011220163613.C18312@sonic.net> References: <20011220163613.C18312@sonic.net> Message-ID: <20011220180958.7bffe8fa.tengel@sonic.net> Dustin Mollo wrote: > > I'd love to see suggestions. I'm assuming we are talking about a web-based > archive here. I'd love to see one that had each month seperated into it's > own page...had a thread view to the list (instead of just a date-ordered > list)...and most importantly had a search engine. Granted, the search > doesn't need to be part of the software that maintains the archive, but I > wouldn't want to put up an archive w/o the search engine. Sympa is your friend -- it does everything you want, and much more. Written in perl, easily installed alongside sendmail, if you have MHonArc installed then complete archives available including advanced searching (for real). The web frontend is really nice, and it can keep the subscriber table(s) in a database (I've used postgres). Requires FastCGI, though (not a biggie). Includes the ability to mass import subscribers etc, like from a regular majordomo list. -te -- Troy Engel :: KeyID DF3D5207 I killed a process today, just to watch it die. From eric at eisenhart.com Thu Dec 20 19:14:04 2001 From: eric at eisenhart.com (Eric Eisenhart) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: Mailing List Archive In-Reply-To: ; from warquel@hotmail.com on Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 10:00:48AM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20011220191404.T19996@atlantic.devin.com> On Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 10:00:48AM -0800, Warren Raquel wrote: > Is there a mailing list archive available somewhere? Yes. It has an email interface, however. All commands are based solely on the address you send to. talk-help@nblug.org will get you a general help message talk-index@nblug.org will get you an index of relatively recent messages. talk-index.1_2000@nblug.org will get you, well, everything (until we hit our 2000th message). talk-index.400_520@nblug.org will get you that specific range. talk-get.540@nblug.org will get you back your original message talk-get.500_523@nblug.org will get that range (100 max) talk-thread.540@nblug.org will get all messages with the same subject line as message 540, so this current thread. I can tell that your message was numbered "540" by looking for the number in the "Return-Path:" header. -- Eric Eisenhart Freedom is slavery. http://eric.eisenhart.com/ ^ ICQ#: 48217244 Ignorance is strength. eric-dot-sig@eisenhart.com /e\ Perl&SQL Coder War is peace. IRC Nicks: Falsch Freiheit --- -- George Orwell From jet at sonic.net Thu Dec 20 19:41:32 2001 From: jet at sonic.net (Mark Street) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: Mailing List Archive In-Reply-To: <20011220163613.C18312@sonic.net> Message-ID: My vote would be Mailman, http://www.list.org It plays nice with sendmail, qmail and postfix. Although qmail takes a bit of tweaking. On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Dustin Mollo wrote: > On Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 10:00:48AM -0800, Warren Raquel wrote: > > Is there a mailing list archive available somewhere? > > Alas, no there isn't. It was my hope to create one eventually. I've got > pretty much every email the talk list has seen saved away in the hopes that > one day we can set one of these up. > > I'd love to see suggestions. I'm assuming we are talking about a web-based > archive here. I'd love to see one that had each month seperated into it's > own page...had a thread view to the list (instead of just a date-ordered > list)...and most importantly had a search engine. Granted, the search > doesn't need to be part of the software that maintains the archive, but I > wouldn't want to put up an archive w/o the search engine. > > -Dustin > From srj at adnd.com Fri Dec 21 08:38:31 2001 From: srj at adnd.com (Steve) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: Mailing List Archive References: <20011220163613.C18312@sonic.net> Message-ID: <000701c18a3d$ede376f0$0eb1ccd1@gwlaptop> What mailing list software are we using for this list? If it is Majordomo I believe there are a few archiving programs out there, if it is mailman, then mailman archives automagicly and has a nice web format. If its not mailman =) You should consider changing, mailman is sweet. -Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dustin Mollo" To: Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 4:36 PM Subject: Re: Mailing List Archive > On Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 10:00:48AM -0800, Warren Raquel wrote: > > Is there a mailing list archive available somewhere? > > Alas, no there isn't. It was my hope to create one eventually. I've got > pretty much every email the talk list has seen saved away in the hopes that > one day we can set one of these up. > > I'd love to see suggestions. I'm assuming we are talking about a web-based > archive here. I'd love to see one that had each month seperated into it's > own page...had a thread view to the list (instead of just a date-ordered > list)...and most importantly had a search engine. Granted, the search > doesn't need to be part of the software that maintains the archive, but I > wouldn't want to put up an archive w/o the search engine. > > -Dustin > From lincoln_peters at hotmail.com Fri Dec 21 09:21:10 2001 From: lincoln_peters at hotmail.com (Lincoln Peters) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: RCHS donation status Message-ID: I'll need to organize a lot more people than just myself before we can link with other schools, but that sounds like a good idea. I think that your computer could be useful. At the least, it could be an FTP server for sharing graphing calculator applications, but I can probably find a more interesting job for it. You want an idea of how the school stands with technology? Today, I lectured a teacher on why not having an Administrator password for his Win2K computer is an enormous security risk! >From: CalHerrmann >Reply-To: >To: >Subject: Re: RCHS donation status >Date: Thu, 6 Sep 1956 09:51:17 -0700 > >Verrry late response, but if any use to someone: > >>The purpose of this email is to begin organizing any donations for >>Lincoln's use at Rancho Cotati High School. > >If another would be useful, I have available an old Packard-Bell, >133MHz pentium, 49M Ram, 6xCD, 10/100 ethernet card. 1.2G IDE HD >(_might_ be able to find a 4G to add). Corel Linux. >Possible idea: if some student interested in the net could link with >other schools, available surplus stuff could be directed to any need >in the county. > >Cal Herrmann >> >>__________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From lincoln_peters at hotmail.com Fri Dec 21 09:24:10 2001 From: lincoln_peters at hotmail.com (Lincoln Peters) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: RCHS donation status Message-ID: We get Internet access through SSU, so I doubt that anyone would have use for modems. Ethernet cards sound good, though. By any chance, would you have any MCA ethernet cards (for old IBM PS/2 systems)? Any PCI or ISA ethernet cards would also be valuable, of course. Sound cards are also good; I don't know anyone at the school who has ever used a computer that couldn't make more noise than simple beeps. Is the voodoo1 card PCI or AGP? If it's PCI, it should work with everything we've got. If it's AGP, it might work with a few things. IDE cables would also be helpful; I always seem to need a spare IDE cable when I least expect to. I can't afford even a $150 computer, but it sounds good enough that I might find someone who would be willing and able to buy it. I have three SCSI cards on hand: two Adaptec ISA cards, and one mysteroius VESA card. Both ISA's appear to be 50-pin; would they work with your CD burners? If so, I'm sure that I could find two people who would want them. >From: Troy Engel >Reply-To: >To: talk@nblug.org >Subject: Re: RCHS donation status >Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:18:20 -0800 > >What stuff is still needed? I have a bunch of ethernet cards, some sound >stuff, a modem or two, a voodoo1 card, and many other odds and ends I'd >love to get rid of. The catch: I live in Mill Valley, someone has to come >get it all. I have more cables than you can shake a stick at, >ide/floppy/scsi. > >I also recently built a machine out of parts that I want to sell *cheap* >(can't give it away :) ). It's a PIII-450, 128meg RAM, ATI Radeon VE >video, 8.5gig IDE drive. I'm looking for, what, maybe $150? Whatever is >fair price. It's a good performer, nice motherboard. > >I also have two extra SCSI cd burners, one a 4x write and the other a 8x >write. I'd like to get a couple bucks for them (I didn't put them in the >above machine, as I don't have a SCSI card). > >All parts 100% linux friendly, and most of it high quality (3com or SMC >nics, the good kind, e.g.). All in beautiful Mill Valley. :) > >-te > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From tengel at sonic.net Fri Dec 21 09:43:18 2001 From: tengel at sonic.net (Troy Engel) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: RCHS donation status In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20011221094318.A22871@sonic.net> On Fri, Dec 21, 2001 at 09:24:10AM -0800, Lincoln Peters wrote: > We get Internet access through SSU, so I doubt that anyone would have use > for modems. Ethernet cards sound good, though. By any chance, would you > have any MCA ethernet cards (for old IBM PS/2 systems)? Any PCI or ISA Nope, no old MCA stuff -- I routinely clean out the closet, like I did this last weekend, and get rid of everything. It's kinda a yearly event. :) > ethernet cards would also be valuable, of course. Sound cards are also > good; I don't know anyone at the school who has ever used a computer that > couldn't make more noise than simple beeps. Is the voodoo1 card PCI or AGP? Voodoo1 is PCI, and I *also* have a Voodoo2 PCI. Yeah, I'm a gamer. ;) I bought a basic GeForce 2 card this time and am not bothering with voodoo anymore. They're both yours if you can use them. (goes for anyone else -- the voodoo2 is prolly worth a few bucks). > I can't afford even a $150 computer, but it sounds good enough that I might > find someone who would be willing and able to buy it. > > I have three SCSI cards on hand: two Adaptec ISA cards, and one mysteroius > VESA card. Both ISA's appear to be 50-pin; would they work with your CD > burners? If so, I'm sure that I could find two people who would want them. A fella (hi howard!) mailed last night saying he was interested in these two bundles, so I may have a 'buyer'. If that doesn't pan out, I'll re-holler. :) Yes, they are 'standard' SCSI devices (ANSI rev 02) that use the 50pin connector found on any scsi card of recent-ish manufacture. I live near Tam High in Mill Valley -- anyone who sees Lincoln wanna pick up a box of stuff and drop it by his place? I rarely venture northwards to SoCo these days.... (Lincoln -- I'll just stuff everything I have in the box, so you'll get more than I mentioned - power supply, mounting brackets, etc. I even have a full mid-tower case, ATX, that I'd love to get rid of). Ho ho ho. -santa-te -- Troy Engel GPG KeyID: DF3D5207 From dpalmer at mahinetworks.com Fri Dec 21 15:57:33 2001 From: dpalmer at mahinetworks.com (Doug Palmer) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: Mailing List Archive Message-ID: <9D6D37E97A57D411BB7C00508BAE29C90263F52E@main.mahinetworks.com> I agree. Mailman rocks, but I've never used it anywhere but Solaris. I assume that Linux port is just as good. Anybody know for sure? Doug Palmer MTS, Software Configuration Management Mahi Networks, Inc. (707) 283-1234 dpalmer@mahinetworks.com ... . -- .--. . .-. / ..-. .. -----Original Message----- From: Steve [mailto:srj@adnd.com] Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 8:39 AM To: talk@nblug.org Subject: Re: Mailing List Archive What mailing list software are we using for this list? If it is Majordomo I believe there are a few archiving programs out there, if it is mailman, then mailman archives automagicly and has a nice web format. If its not mailman =) You should consider changing, mailman is sweet. -Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dustin Mollo" To: Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 4:36 PM Subject: Re: Mailing List Archive > On Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 10:00:48AM -0800, Warren Raquel wrote: > > Is there a mailing list archive available somewhere? > > Alas, no there isn't. It was my hope to create one eventually. I've got > pretty much every email the talk list has seen saved away in the hopes that > one day we can set one of these up. > > I'd love to see suggestions. I'm assuming we are talking about a web-based > archive here. I'd love to see one that had each month seperated into it's > own page...had a thread view to the list (instead of just a date-ordered > list)...and most importantly had a search engine. Granted, the search > doesn't need to be part of the software that maintains the archive, but I > wouldn't want to put up an archive w/o the search engine. > > -Dustin > From jet at sonic.net Fri Dec 21 16:10:20 2001 From: jet at sonic.net (Mark Street) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: Mailing List Archive In-Reply-To: <9D6D37E97A57D411BB7C00508BAE29C90263F52E@main.mahinetworks .com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011221160857.00ba0100@pop.sonic.net> Yeah, I run it on no less than 3 Linux servers, two running qmail and one running sendmail. At 03:57 PM 12/21/2001 -0800, Doug Palmer wrote: >I agree. Mailman rocks, but I've never used it anywhere but Solaris. I >assume that Linux port is just as good. Anybody know for sure? From lincoln_peters at hotmail.com Sat Dec 22 13:39:38 2001 From: lincoln_peters at hotmail.com (Lincoln Peters) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: New computer "Isildur" for RCHS Message-ID: The computer with the nearly-discarded tower and Mike's motherboard is operational! Here's what it looks like: Pentium I at 166MHz. 64MB RAM. RAID array with 6GB capacity (3 harddisks of 2GB each). Sound Blaster 16. Basic (Trident?) video card with 1MB onboard memory. Tulip 10/100 Ethernet card. Unknown 14" monitor at 640x480, 256 colors. Needs a better monitor. Currently running Red Hat Linux 7.2, using KDE desktop. Possibly will also include: SCSI controller, not yet sure what to put on it (maybe a CD burner?) I successfully moved all of the hardware onto a single power supply by using four electrical splitters. But I can't deliver the computer to anyone for the next two weeks, due to winter break (which, for some strange reason, started today). _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From list at mindling.com Sun Dec 23 15:56:26 2001 From: list at mindling.com (Sebastian Mindling) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: RCHS donation status In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20011223154956.D952.LIST@mindling.com> On Fri, 21 Dec 2001 09:24:10 -0800, "Lincoln Peters" spoke gently: > Any PCI or ISA > ethernet cards would also be valuable, of course. Sound cards are also Sorry, no PS/2 nics here either, but I DO have a box full of ISA NE2000 10-base cards. Probably at least 20 in there. A few are 3com combos, the rest are TP only Genrics(tm). If these are of any use to you, they're yours. -seb From srj at adnd.com Thu Dec 27 09:07:02 2001 From: srj at adnd.com (Steve) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: Mailing List Archive References: <9D6D37E97A57D411BB7C00508BAE29C90263F52E@main.mahinetworks.com> Message-ID: <000801c18ef8$e7cb0480$0eb1ccd1@gwlaptop> Well since it is written in PHP there really is no Linux port =) It should run the same on both platforms =) -Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Palmer" To: Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 3:57 PM Subject: RE: Mailing List Archive > I agree. Mailman rocks, but I've never used it anywhere but Solaris. I > assume that Linux port is just as good. Anybody know for sure? > > Doug Palmer > MTS, Software Configuration Management > Mahi Networks, Inc. > (707) 283-1234 > dpalmer@mahinetworks.com > ... . -- .--. . .-. / ..-. .. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve [mailto:srj@adnd.com] > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 8:39 AM > To: talk@nblug.org > Subject: Re: Mailing List Archive > > > What mailing list software are we using for this list? If it is Majordomo I > believe there are a few archiving programs out there, if it is mailman, then > mailman archives automagicly and has a nice web format. If its not mailman > =) You should consider changing, mailman is sweet. > > -Steve > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dustin Mollo" > To: > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 4:36 PM > Subject: Re: Mailing List Archive > > > > On Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 10:00:48AM -0800, Warren Raquel wrote: > > > Is there a mailing list archive available somewhere? > > > > Alas, no there isn't. It was my hope to create one eventually. I've got > > pretty much every email the talk list has seen saved away in the hopes > that > > one day we can set one of these up. > > > > I'd love to see suggestions. I'm assuming we are talking about a > web-based > > archive here. I'd love to see one that had each month seperated into it's > > own page...had a thread view to the list (instead of just a date-ordered > > list)...and most importantly had a search engine. Granted, the search > > doesn't need to be part of the software that maintains the archive, but I > > wouldn't want to put up an archive w/o the search engine. > > > > -Dustin > > > From ricklyb at yahoo.com Thu Dec 27 17:04:46 2001 From: ricklyb at yahoo.com (rick lybeck) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: StarOffice vs. OpenOffice Message-ID: <20011228010446.69745.qmail@web12103.mail.yahoo.com> Does anyone have any experience with these applications? I'm looking for advice since I don't have time to try all the versions available. I need a competent word processing program and a spreadsheet. Graphics, Presentation programs, etc. are of secondary interest. The programs must operate under both Linux/Unix and Windows (98/95/XP). Data compatability with MS Word and Works would be nice. StarOffice is available as versions 5.2 and 6.0 Beta, and OpenOffice is available as a variety of builds. Any recommendations or guidance would be appreciated. Thanks, Rick __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From jet at sonic.net Thu Dec 27 17:31:33 2001 From: jet at sonic.net (Mark Street) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: Mailing List Archive In-Reply-To: <000801c18ef8$e7cb0480$0eb1ccd1@gwlaptop> Message-ID: I think you mean python.... On Thu, 27 Dec 2001, Steve wrote: > Well since it is written in PHP there really is no Linux port =) It should > run the same on both platforms =) > > -Steve > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doug Palmer" > To: > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 3:57 PM > Subject: RE: Mailing List Archive > > > > I agree. Mailman rocks, but I've never used it anywhere but Solaris. I > > assume that Linux port is just as good. Anybody know for sure? > > > > Doug Palmer > > MTS, Software Configuration Management > > Mahi Networks, Inc. > > (707) 283-1234 > > dpalmer@mahinetworks.com > > ... . -- .--. . .-. / ..-. .. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Steve [mailto:srj@adnd.com] > > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 8:39 AM > > To: talk@nblug.org > > Subject: Re: Mailing List Archive > > > > > > What mailing list software are we using for this list? If it is Majordomo > I > > believe there are a few archiving programs out there, if it is mailman, > then > > mailman archives automagicly and has a nice web format. If its not > mailman > > =) You should consider changing, mailman is sweet. > > > > -Steve > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Dustin Mollo" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 4:36 PM > > Subject: Re: Mailing List Archive > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 10:00:48AM -0800, Warren Raquel wrote: > > > > Is there a mailing list archive available somewhere? > > > > > > Alas, no there isn't. It was my hope to create one eventually. I've > got > > > pretty much every email the talk list has seen saved away in the hopes > > that > > > one day we can set one of these up. > > > > > > I'd love to see suggestions. I'm assuming we are talking about a > > web-based > > > archive here. I'd love to see one that had each month seperated into > it's > > > own page...had a thread view to the list (instead of just a date-ordered > > > list)...and most importantly had a search engine. Granted, the search > > > doesn't need to be part of the software that maintains the archive, but > I > > > wouldn't want to put up an archive w/o the search engine. > > > > > > -Dustin > > > > > > From chrisw at pacaids.com Fri Dec 28 00:46:08 2001 From: chrisw at pacaids.com (Christopher Wagner) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: StarOffice vs. OpenOffice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've played with both your referenced versions of StarOffice. I found 5.2 to be a bit kludgy, but found the 6.0 beta to be very useful and quite powerful. I enjoy using it and frequently use it instead of W0rd. :) - Christopher Wagner -----Original Message----- From: rick lybeck [mailto:ricklyb@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 5:05 PM To: talk@nblug.org Subject: StarOffice vs. OpenOffice Does anyone have any experience with these applications? I'm looking for advice since I don't have time to try all the versions available. I need a competent word processing program and a spreadsheet. Graphics, Presentation programs, etc. are of secondary interest. The programs must operate under both Linux/Unix and Windows (98/95/XP). Data compatability with MS Word and Works would be nice. StarOffice is available as versions 5.2 and 6.0 Beta, and OpenOffice is available as a variety of builds. Any recommendations or guidance would be appreciated. Thanks, Rick __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From srj at adnd.com Fri Dec 28 08:53:34 2001 From: srj at adnd.com (Steve) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: Mailing List Archive References: Message-ID: <001001c18fc0$30f63860$0eb1ccd1@gwlaptop> Doh! Yeah you're right.. Don't know what I was thinking. -Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Street" To: Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 5:31 PM Subject: Re: Mailing List Archive > I think you mean python.... > > On Thu, 27 Dec 2001, Steve wrote: > > > Well since it is written in PHP there really is no Linux port =) It should > > run the same on both platforms =) > > > > -Steve > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Doug Palmer" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 3:57 PM > > Subject: RE: Mailing List Archive > > > > > > > I agree. Mailman rocks, but I've never used it anywhere but Solaris. I > > > assume that Linux port is just as good. Anybody know for sure? > > > > > > Doug Palmer > > > MTS, Software Configuration Management > > > Mahi Networks, Inc. > > > (707) 283-1234 > > > dpalmer@mahinetworks.com > > > ... . -- .--. . .-. / ..-. .. > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Steve [mailto:srj@adnd.com] > > > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 8:39 AM > > > To: talk@nblug.org > > > Subject: Re: Mailing List Archive > > > > > > > > > What mailing list software are we using for this list? If it is Majordomo > > I > > > believe there are a few archiving programs out there, if it is mailman, > > then > > > mailman archives automagicly and has a nice web format. If its not > > mailman > > > =) You should consider changing, mailman is sweet. > > > > > > -Steve > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Dustin Mollo" > > > To: > > > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 4:36 PM > > > Subject: Re: Mailing List Archive > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 10:00:48AM -0800, Warren Raquel wrote: > > > > > Is there a mailing list archive available somewhere? > > > > > > > > Alas, no there isn't. It was my hope to create one eventually. I've > > got > > > > pretty much every email the talk list has seen saved away in the hopes > > > that > > > > one day we can set one of these up. > > > > > > > > I'd love to see suggestions. I'm assuming we are talking about a > > > web-based > > > > archive here. I'd love to see one that had each month seperated into > > it's > > > > own page...had a thread view to the list (instead of just a date-ordered > > > > list)...and most importantly had a search engine. Granted, the search > > > > doesn't need to be part of the software that maintains the archive, but > > I > > > > wouldn't want to put up an archive w/o the search engine. > > > > > > > > -Dustin > > > > > > > > > > From jet at sonic.net Fri Dec 28 09:08:12 2001 From: jet at sonic.net (Mark Street) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: StarOffice vs. OpenOffice In-Reply-To: <20011228010446.69745.qmail@web12103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This sure is asking alot.....to run under 98,95,...and XP. Forget it. OpenOffice is a Star Office test bed. THe 6.0 beta is quite powerful and fairly stable with nice filters for M$ Office Word and Excel files..... not 100% effective filters.... but hey M$ is a proprietary file format. I have used SO since version 4, I run 5.2, and OpenOffice 6 on several Linux servers now. Take a look at KOffice the KDE Office Suite. Which does NOT run under M$ Win. The Gimp is the graphics package of choice. Once you free yourself from closed standards and proprietary file formats its easy. On Thu, 27 Dec 2001, rick lybeck wrote: > Does anyone have any experience with these > applications? I'm looking for advice since I don't > have time to try all the versions available. > I need a competent word processing program and a > spreadsheet. Graphics, Presentation programs, etc. > are of secondary interest. The programs must operate > under both Linux/Unix and Windows (98/95/XP). Data > compatability with MS Word and Works would be nice. > StarOffice is available as versions 5.2 and 6.0 Beta, > and OpenOffice is available as a variety of builds. > Any recommendations or guidance would be appreciated. > Thanks, > Rick > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > http://greetings.yahoo.com > From chrisw at pacaids.com Fri Dec 28 01:13:11 2001 From: chrisw at pacaids.com (Christopher Wagner) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: Booting Linux from an internal IDE Zip disk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Richard Gordon [mailto:gordon@sonoma.edu] Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 10:56 PM To: talk@nblug.org Subject: Re: Booting Linux from an internal IDE Zip disk? I appreciate all the suggestions. I will be pursuing a few of them as soon as I can find a spare computer at work. Here are a few comments: 2. We know that our machines are not secure, but we cannot make them secure and still allow students to do the kinds of exercises we require. The goal, however, is to eliminate accidental modification of the systems on the hard disks. Nobody has ever abused the freedome we allow. - Hmm.. I'd knock on wood after saying that. :) - 3. If we cannot get Linux to work without a floppy then we will use a floppy for the kernel. It just seems a little neater to avoid the floppy. - Well, if your bios does not support booting from ZIP, then the option is either to get another IDE controller that will support this. I think Promise may have such a thing. Or to upgrade your motherboard's bios. -- 4. We probably won't burn CDs. It is something we have to do for the students, whereas the mechanism using Zips (and floppies) can be done by students using files we place on our server. Also CDs will be slow even compared to Zip disks, and we still need the Zip disks for the files students will be creating or modifying. - CDs would be faster than ZIPs. But I understand your point, if the students can do it themselves, it saves the teacher time, and hopefully they might learn something in the process (we hope). -- 6. Yes, we have "old" PCs with an old BIOS. I have been trying to get my hands on a newer BIOS, one with support for booting from Zip drives, but so far without success. Even if I could specify in the BIOS to boot from the Zip drive I would still have to know the bios number for the drive so that I could put that into lilo.conf for the root partition. - Award makes a bios that supports booting from ZIP drives. Usually, when you want to get a new bios, you replace the motherboard to do so, although conceivably on many motherboards you can replace just the bios, but the number of boards with removable bios chips are dwindling rapidly. -- 7. And yes, we are planning for new labs, not replacements of our old PCs. Fortunately when we bought the PCs for the lab we bought extras for faculty, so we have a bunch of SCSI Zip drives that we can use as those in the lab break. - Hey, I'd brave a rabid pit bull for a good internal SCSI ZIP drive.. -- 8. The VMWare idea seemed interesting until someone noted that it costs money. Matt Kirk probably had it right when he suggested that it would be too expensive a solution. If it costs money we probably cannot afford to do it. Most software, no matter how reasonable in price, becomes expensive when you have to install it on 20 or 40 or 80 computers. - They may have quantity discounts, and educational discounts. It might be worth at least looking into. http://www.vmware.com/solutions/academic/ -- - Christopher Wagner From chrisw at pacaids.com Fri Dec 28 01:23:50 2001 From: chrisw at pacaids.com (Christopher Wagner) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: RCHS donation status In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Troy, I work in San Rafael and live in Sebastopol. If we can arrange to meet down here somewheres, I can drop it off at Lincoln's place or the school in Sonoma County. I'll take one of the 8x burner's off your hands and the computer for maybe $225? Let me know.. - Christopher Wagner -----Original Message----- From: Troy Engel [mailto:tengel@sonic.net] Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 10:18 AM To: talk@nblug.org Subject: Re: RCHS donation status What stuff is still needed? I have a bunch of ethernet cards, some sound stuff, a modem or two, a voodoo1 card, and many other odds and ends I'd love to get rid of. The catch: I live in Mill Valley, someone has to come get it all. I have more cables than you can shake a stick at, ide/floppy/scsi. I also recently built a machine out of parts that I want to sell *cheap* (can't give it away :) ). It's a PIII-450, 128meg RAM, ATI Radeon VE video, 8.5gig IDE drive. I'm looking for, what, maybe $150? Whatever is fair price. It's a good performer, nice motherboard. I also have two extra SCSI cd burners, one a 4x write and the other a 8x write. I'd like to get a couple bucks for them (I didn't put them in the above machine, as I don't have a SCSI card). All parts 100% linux friendly, and most of it high quality (3com or SMC nics, the good kind, e.g.). All in beautiful Mill Valley. :) -te From dolo724 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 28 10:27:57 2001 From: dolo724 at yahoo.com (Mike Rice) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: StarOffice vs. OpenOffice In-Reply-To: <20011228010446.69745.qmail@web12103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20011228182757.37353.qmail@web13304.mail.yahoo.com> I love SO! I've used StarOffice exclusively for the past two years on Windows and Linux. I've had only minor compatibility problems with MSWord docs, but these are explained by the incorrect use of MSWord to create templates. MSExcel is also fairly well replaced by SO, but stick with the 5.2 version until 6.0 is no longer beta. I'm waiting myself... If you go with the 5.2 version, stay away from the email! it's weird. Mike --- rick lybeck wrote: > Does anyone have any experience with these > applications? I'm looking for advice since I don't > have time to try all the versions available. > I need a competent word processing program and a > spreadsheet. Graphics, Presentation programs, etc. > are of secondary interest. The programs must operate > under both Linux/Unix and Windows (98/95/XP). Data > compatability with MS Word and Works would be nice. > StarOffice is available as versions 5.2 and 6.0 Beta, > and OpenOffice is available as a variety of builds. > Any recommendations or guidance would be appreciated. > Thanks, > Rick > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > http://greetings.yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From lincoln_peters at hotmail.com Fri Dec 28 14:35:36 2001 From: lincoln_peters at hotmail.com (Lincoln Peters) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: RCHS donation status Message-ID: Just a reminder: RCHS is on Winter Break. Nobody is going to be there until January 7th, so any donations before then will have to go to my place. If you need my address, let me know and I'll e-mail it to you directly. >From: "Christopher Wagner" >Reply-To: >To: >Subject: RE: RCHS donation status >Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 01:23:50 -0800 > >Troy, I work in San Rafael and live in Sebastopol. If we can arrange to >meet down here somewheres, I can drop it off at Lincoln's place or the >school in Sonoma County. > >I'll take one of the 8x burner's off your hands and the computer for maybe >$225? > >Let me know.. > >- Christopher Wagner > >-----Original Message----- >From: Troy Engel [mailto:tengel@sonic.net] >Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 10:18 AM >To: talk@nblug.org >Subject: Re: RCHS donation status > > >What stuff is still needed? I have a bunch of ethernet cards, some sound >stuff, a modem or two, a voodoo1 card, and many other odds and ends I'd >love >to get rid of. The catch: I live in Mill Valley, someone has to come get >it >all. I have more cables than you can shake a stick at, ide/floppy/scsi. > >I also recently built a machine out of parts that I want to sell *cheap* >(can't give it away :) ). It's a PIII-450, 128meg RAM, ATI Radeon VE >video, >8.5gig IDE drive. I'm looking for, what, maybe $150? Whatever is fair >price. It's a good performer, nice motherboard. > >I also have two extra SCSI cd burners, one a 4x write and the other a 8x >write. I'd like to get a couple bucks for them (I didn't put them in the >above machine, as I don't have a SCSI card). > >All parts 100% linux friendly, and most of it high quality (3com or SMC >nics, the good kind, e.g.). All in beautiful Mill Valley. :) > >-te > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From brad at linuxbofh.com Fri Dec 28 16:10:23 2001 From: brad at linuxbofh.com (Brad Cox) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: Booting Linux from an internal IDE Zip disk? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20011229001022.GE18512@linuxbofh.com> On Fri, Dec 28, 2001 at 01:13:11AM -0800, Christopher Wagner wrote: > 8. The VMWare idea seemed interesting until someone noted that it > costs money. Matt Kirk probably had it right when he suggested that > it would be too expensive a solution. If it costs money we probably > cannot afford to do it. Most software, no matter how reasonable in > price, becomes expensive when you have to install it on 20 or 40 or > 80 computers. > - > They may have quantity discounts, and educational discounts. It > might be worth at least looking into. > http://www.vmware.com/solutions/academic/ I was recently (~2 weeks) quoted a price of $130/seat @ 30 seats. They may have some sort of site license available as well. Personally, I don't think anyone should have to buy more than one license, as I believe they don't say you can't run more than one copy per cpu. One 30GHz CPU is roughtly equivalent to 30 1GHz machines in my mind (except the latter is more reliable). It should be possible to run it via NFS. With 3 T3 lines, it doesn't take more than one incident to justify security. (Look at all the places that have spent money on software that keeps people out of cheaper OS's [I believe Lincoln mentioned that RCHS tried to do this recently for their windoze boxes]. The difference being that those attempts are rather misguided.) The lawsuit or the loss of work from a single DDoS would probably cover the cost. Just my $0.02. -- Brad Cox brad@linuxbofh.com Key fingerprint = E741 589E 4A43 DA89 C5AA B9A3 7E44 18BB C16B F62D You dialed 5483. From tengel at sonic.net Fri Dec 28 19:43:12 2001 From: tengel at sonic.net (Troy Engel) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: RCHS donation status In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20011228194312.71114551.tengel@sonic.net> Christopher and I had a successful rendevous (woooooo....) this afternoon; there's a whole bunch of goodies on it's way to you of all sorts, I'm sure some of it will come in useful - even had all sorts of other cables I found in the closet as well this morning, as well as another video card, scsi enclosure, and other random bits. -te On Fri, 28 Dec 2001 14:35:36 -0800 "Lincoln Peters" wrote: > Just a reminder: RCHS is on Winter Break. Nobody is going to be there until > January 7th, so any donations before then will have to go to my place. > > If you need my address, let me know and I'll e-mail it to you directly. > > > >From: "Christopher Wagner" > >Reply-To: > >To: > >Subject: RE: RCHS donation status > >Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 01:23:50 -0800 > > > >Troy, I work in San Rafael and live in Sebastopol. If we can arrange to > >meet down here somewheres, I can drop it off at Lincoln's place or the > >school in Sonoma County. > > > >I'll take one of the 8x burner's off your hands and the computer for maybe > >$225? > > > >Let me know.. > > > >- Christopher Wagner > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Troy Engel [mailto:tengel@sonic.net] > >Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 10:18 AM > >To: talk@nblug.org > >Subject: Re: RCHS donation status > > > > > >What stuff is still needed? I have a bunch of ethernet cards, some sound > >stuff, a modem or two, a voodoo1 card, and many other odds and ends I'd > >love > >to get rid of. The catch: I live in Mill Valley, someone has to come get > >it > >all. I have more cables than you can shake a stick at, ide/floppy/scsi. > > > >I also recently built a machine out of parts that I want to sell *cheap* > >(can't give it away :) ). It's a PIII-450, 128meg RAM, ATI Radeon VE > >video, > >8.5gig IDE drive. I'm looking for, what, maybe $150? Whatever is fair > >price. It's a good performer, nice motherboard. > > > >I also have two extra SCSI cd burners, one a 4x write and the other a 8x > >write. I'd like to get a couple bucks for them (I didn't put them in the > >above machine, as I don't have a SCSI card). > > > >All parts 100% linux friendly, and most of it high quality (3com or SMC > >nics, the good kind, e.g.). All in beautiful Mill Valley. :) > > > >-te > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. > -- -- Troy Engel :: KeyID DF3D5207 I killed a process today, just to watch it die. From lincoln_peters at hotmail.com Fri Dec 28 21:35:19 2001 From: lincoln_peters at hotmail.com (Lincoln Peters) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: Booting Linux from an internal IDE Zip disk? Message-ID: >From: Brad Cox >Reply-To: >To: talk@nblug.org >Subject: Re: Booting Linux from an internal IDE Zip disk? >Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 16:10:23 -0800 > [snip] > >With 3 T3 lines, it doesn't take more than one incident to justify >security. (Look at all the places that have spent money on software >that keeps people out of cheaper OS's [I believe Lincoln mentioned >that RCHS tried to do this recently for their windoze boxes]. The >difference being that those attempts are rather misguided.) The >lawsuit or the loss of work from a single DDoS would probably cover >the cost. RCHS didn't try to prevent anyone from using other OS's; they just didn't consider using anything other than Windows and MacOS. Of course, I don't think that the technician would be happy if he saw Linux running on one of the shiny new Windows NT computers (by some coincidence, he still hasn't). > >Just my $0.02. > >-- >Brad Cox brad@linuxbofh.com >Key fingerprint = E741 589E 4A43 DA89 C5AA B9A3 7E44 18BB C16B F62D >You dialed 5483. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From lincoln_peters at hotmail.com Sun Dec 30 16:14:04 2001 From: lincoln_peters at hotmail.com (Lincoln Peters) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: Hardware delivery Message-ID: I received some equipment from Chris and Troy yesterday, and here's what I found: A full-size ATX tower with a power supply. An ATX motherboard that looks like it would fit in the tower. It has onboard sound. A Comdex ethernet/DSL router. I can't try it out because Earthlink and AT&T firmly deny the availability of DSL in my area. A PCI 3DFX video card, apparently dual-headed (has two VGA ports). A PCI S3 VIRGE video card, single-headed. An external Motorola ISDN modem, speed unknown (I don't have ISDN; can't try it). An external Supra Faxmodem, speed 28.8k An internal PCI modem (hopefully not a Winmodem). A PCI Kingston ethernet NIC. An ISA NIC, probably generic NE2000. An unlabeled PCI ethernet NIC. 2 telephone cables. An ATA IDE cable. A generic IDE cable. A 6-foot (?) ethernet cable. 3 KVM extension cables (each handles an AT keyboard, a serial mouse, and a VGA monitor). The delivery of the monitors was delayed. I think that there is enough equipment here and in my garage to assemble another computer, except that I don't have a hard drive for it and I don't have motherboard stand-offs (the screw kinds, not the plastic ones). Chris said that he could get some old hard drives, but it's hard to tell whether or not they'll be enough; Isildur has a 6GB RAID-0 array, and it's already 80% full. As for the spacers, I'll try to get them myself. Also worth noting is that I used the parts from one of the almost-discarded towers to assemble another computer that is complete except for a hard drive. As a result, I have two computers besides Isildur that would be ready to go if I had hard drives for them. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From srj at adnd.com Mon Dec 31 10:09:11 2001 From: srj at adnd.com (Steve) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: Hardware delivery References: Message-ID: <000f01c19226$40075740$0eb1ccd1@gwlaptop> > A PCI 3DFX video card, apparently dual-headed (has two VGA ports). > A PCI S3 VIRGE video card, single-headed. The 3DFX card is probably a voodoo 2. If this is true then it is not a dual head card, instead you use the PCI S3 VIRGE card, and takes its video out and plug it into on of the ports on the 3DFX card, then then go out from the 3DFX card to the monitor. the 3DFX card slaves off the VIRGE card. Voodoo 2's did not have 2d and 3d on the same card. Just 3d -Steve From lincoln_peters at hotmail.com Mon Dec 31 10:58:55 2001 From: lincoln_peters at hotmail.com (Lincoln Peters) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: Hardware delivery Message-ID: That would explain the VGA cable that was taped to the bag that it came in. Thanks for clearing that up. What Linux programs would benefit from a 3D video card? >From: "Steve" >Reply-To: >To: >Subject: Re: Hardware delivery >Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:09:11 -0800 > > > A PCI 3DFX video card, apparently dual-headed (has two VGA ports). > > A PCI S3 VIRGE video card, single-headed. > >The 3DFX card is probably a voodoo 2. If this is true then it is not a >dual head card, instead you use the PCI S3 VIRGE card, and takes its video >out and plug it into on of the ports on the 3DFX card, then then go out >from >the 3DFX card to the monitor. the 3DFX card slaves off the VIRGE card. > >Voodoo 2's did not have 2d and 3d on the same card. Just 3d > >-Steve > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From srj at adnd.com Mon Dec 31 11:09:35 2001 From: srj at adnd.com (Steve) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: Hardware delivery References: Message-ID: <000501c1922e$b00f53f0$0eb1ccd1@gwlaptop> Xfree can use OpenGL drivers for games and some other stuff.. Including a few screen savers. -Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lincoln Peters" To: Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 10:58 AM Subject: Re: Hardware delivery > That would explain the VGA cable that was taped to the bag that it came in. > Thanks for clearing that up. > > What Linux programs would benefit from a 3D video card? > > > >From: "Steve" > >Reply-To: > >To: > >Subject: Re: Hardware delivery > >Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:09:11 -0800 > > > > > A PCI 3DFX video card, apparently dual-headed (has two VGA ports). > > > A PCI S3 VIRGE video card, single-headed. > > > >The 3DFX card is probably a voodoo 2. If this is true then it is not a > >dual head card, instead you use the PCI S3 VIRGE card, and takes its video > >out and plug it into on of the ports on the 3DFX card, then then go out > >from > >the 3DFX card to the monitor. the 3DFX card slaves off the VIRGE card. > > > >Voodoo 2's did not have 2d and 3d on the same card. Just 3d > > > >-Steve > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. > From tengel at sonic.net Mon Dec 31 11:39:36 2001 From: tengel at sonic.net (Troy Engel) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: Hardware delivery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20011231113936.382c3882.tengel@sonic.net> There was both a Voodoo 1 and Voodoo 2 card in the box, both which operate in the same manner -- the video OUT from a "normal" card is fed into the video IN on the voodoo(s), then the monitor plugs into the voodoo card. The card is then only activated when special drivers request it too. What's it good for? games. I used it/them primarily for Quake, Descent, and their ilk. Not useful for much anything else, they require the special drivers. -te On Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:58:55 -0800 "Lincoln Peters" wrote: > That would explain the VGA cable that was taped to the bag that it came in. > Thanks for clearing that up. > > What Linux programs would benefit from a 3D video card? > > > >From: "Steve" > >Reply-To: > >To: > >Subject: Re: Hardware delivery > >Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:09:11 -0800 > > > > > A PCI 3DFX video card, apparently dual-headed (has two VGA ports). > > > A PCI S3 VIRGE video card, single-headed. > > > >The 3DFX card is probably a voodoo 2. If this is true then it is not a > >dual head card, instead you use the PCI S3 VIRGE card, and takes its video > >out and plug it into on of the ports on the 3DFX card, then then go out > >from > >the 3DFX card to the monitor. the 3DFX card slaves off the VIRGE card. > > > >Voodoo 2's did not have 2d and 3d on the same card. Just 3d > > > >-Steve > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. > -- -- Troy Engel :: KeyID DF3D5207 I killed a process today, just to watch it die. From lincoln_peters at hotmail.com Mon Dec 31 17:24:38 2001 From: lincoln_peters at hotmail.com (Lincoln Peters) Date: Sun Feb 20 16:53:33 2005 Subject: Hardware delivery Message-ID: I doubt that any teacher would look kindly on me if I put Quake or Descent on their shiny new Linux workstations. What about 3D animation? There is a 3D animation class at RCHS; is there any Linux software for 3D animation that would benefit from a Voodoo card? >From: Troy Engel >Reply-To: >To: >Subject: Re: Hardware delivery >Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 11:39:36 -0800 > >There was both a Voodoo 1 and Voodoo 2 card in the box, both which operate >in the same manner -- the video OUT from a "normal" card is fed into the >video IN on the voodoo(s), then the monitor plugs into the voodoo card. >The card is then only activated when special drivers request it too. > >What's it good for? games. I used it/them primarily for Quake, Descent, >and their ilk. Not useful for much anything else, they require the special >drivers. > >-te _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com